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Old 08-12-2009, 05:05 PM   #21
texasyankee
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These discussions are classic Socratic method. One question always leads to another question.



If you are running wide at the exit, you need a different reference point to know when the turn is finished and when to start the left hander. There are three or four cones that mark the edge of the track where a lane from the banking comes to join the road course.

I keep looking over my right shoulder until I see the far right cone. Looking that way keeps me tight to the inside curb. Its the old idea that you go where you look. If you look at the left side of the track the bike will drift to the left. When I feel parallel to the right side of the track and pointed to the cone, the turn is finished and I flop to the left. I then see the left curbing on turn 11 and can see the left side of the right curbing on turn 11 and aim for that.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotsauce View Post
Naturally when you apply pressure to the bars to make steering changes whether mid corner or not, you are going to affect the bikes grip. The more pressure applied to the bars, results in a decrease in lean angle, thus reducing contact patch and ultimately your amount of traction available.

In regards to bad habits, making steering adjustments when presented with a decreasing radius turn would be necessary. However, referring back to the carousel at TWS (Texas World Speedway) and in turns in general it sounds like your approach and or line is maybe a bit off. Making mid turn steering adjustments in theorey and in practice is not a great habit to get into.Your line selection and speed of entry will dictate whether you need to make those mid corner changes, hopefully you can find a line that will not call for any changes mid corner. If your current line for this turn results in you buffing up the entry to the next turn, maybe a new line selection would behoove you. As far as your drifting out habit for that turn, it sounds like maintaining a consistency with the amount of pressure on the bars will help keep the bike on the line you've selected.
Wouldnt more pressure on the bars INCREASE lean angle? If Im turning right and push the right handle bar forward, that increases my lean....

In regards to the carousel at TWS (Texas World Speedway). Jeff from ridesmart said my line is fine through there. I think I just explained the situations terribly. When going thru the carousel, I maintain the inside radius all the way through the turn until it is time to pick it up and drop it over for the next turn. In that particular situation, I just notice I am pushing the bar forward to maintain the line.

In the decreasing radius turn, I find I am gradually applying more forward force to the bar to achieve a greater lean angle.

Are you or are you not supposed to use a push on the bar to turn more( greater lean angle)?
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasyankee View Post
These discussions are classic Socratic method. One question always leads to another question.
Im trying to find a way to present it in a conclusive manner, keyword trying. Its hard for me to explain though.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:14 PM   #24
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Raise the rear or lower the front. Assuming you have the correct springs and sag set.

Or it could be as simple as "go faster".
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:10 PM   #25
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I push on the inside clip on all the time. When you start picking up the pace, you have to...if you are trying to haul .

I am of the opinion that this weighting the pegs only....is bullshit. It takes more.

When I start running wide....and dont want slow down...i countersteer and look farther through the turn.

Just my humble .02.

Be careful though....countersteering too hard...too far in the corner...will make the front end want to tuck....FOR ME.
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxxer600 View Post
Im trying to find a way to present it in a conclusive manner, keyword trying. Its hard for me to explain though.
Not meant as a criticism. Its the best way to learn (except for practice). Ask questions, get answers, ask more questions.
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:47 PM   #27
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On the heavier bikes on the track(busa) I would start on the peg, press down further and always need to push on the levers to get all the way over.

The lighter bikes I've been on required much less effort to take the same corners and I haven't been at a pace where I required pushing on the clip ons.
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:03 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
I push on the inside clip on all the time. When you start picking up the pace, you have to...if you are trying to haul .

I am of the opinion that this weighting the pegs only....is bullshit. It takes more.

When I start running wide....and dont want slow down...i countersteer and look farther through the turn.

Just my humble .02.

Be careful though....countersteering too hard...too far in the corner...will make the front end want to tuck....FOR ME.
Awesome answer, just what I was looking for
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:05 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaligoneTx View Post
On the heavier bikes on the track(busa) I would start on the peg, press down further and always need to push on the levers to get all the way over.

The lighter bikes I've been on required much less effort to take the same corners and I haven't been at a pace where I required pushing on the clip ons.
Thanks Cali! Im on a lighter bike but I also dont weigh much .

You planing on 3090 anytime soon?
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:44 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxxer600 View Post
I think so. I am at maintenance throttle though. Do you push on the bars to get more lean angle? What Im getting is that its normal to push on the bars to get the bike to lean more right?

Pushing in the inside bar does increse lean angle. A motorcycle thats at maintenance throttle should hold its cornering arc and lean angle with no steering inputs. Therefore if you're having to turn the bike back in while in a constant radius turn you're either NOT at maintenance throttle.......or you're adding steering inputs you're not thinking about. With particular regards to the Carousel at TWS (Texas World Speedway), you're likely standing the bike up too soon.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:01 AM   #31
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Same turn in + same lean angle + more speed will make me run wide. Therefore pushing a bit will increase lean angle and keep me on the line without decreasing speed. I counter steer all the time through the carousel.

I don't understand what you are saying popo?
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post

I don't understand what you are saying popo?
I thought it was pretty clear: if you're not holding your turning arc (aka "staying on your line") it means you're either not at maintenance throttle or you're somehow steering the bike.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:06 AM   #33
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What about too much speed? That won't make you get off your line?
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:14 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
What about too much speed? That won't make you get off your line?
At lean angle X and Speed Y the bike will hold arc Z.

Set the bike to lean angle X, carry speed Y+10 and the bike will hold an arc Z+something. A wider arc than Z.


So really you're not "getting off your line" you just didn't set the correct lean angle to begin with. Assuming that at the increased speed you still desired to follow the same arc you did at the lower speed.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:37 AM   #35
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
At lean angle X and Speed Y the bike will hold arc Z.

Set the bike to lean angle X, carry speed Y+10 and the bike will hold an arc Z+something. A wider arc than Z.


So really you're not "getting off your line" you just didn't set the correct lean angle to begin with. Assuming that at the increased speed you still desired to follow the same arc you did at the lower speed.[/QUOT
FROM THE OP:
This is true. I find it very easy to only use the pegs to steer in at moderate to spirited speed. When im really trying to push it through a corner though I find it almost impossible to acheive the angle X I need without pushing on the bar. SO, I wanted to know if bar inputs will eventually make the front wash out. Cdill answered yes its ok but yes it might make the front wash out if done with to much force.

Everyone else is saying that they dont have to use bar inputs.

SO my next question is how are you achieving these lean angles without using the bars when your pushing a fast lap?

AND How are you increasing your lean angle in decreasing radius turns without using the bars when your pushing a fast lap?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ROADandTRACK View Post
Geometry F@^#&Ride Smart THINK IT!!!
Geometry people think about it?
or
Its geometry people, think about it?
hahahaa
Sorry, I had to
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:21 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
What about too much speed? That won't make you get off your line?
That would be my question 3. Coming into a turn hot but still not at that "limit" of the bike. This is another example when I use bar inputs..
Am I gonna eat doing this
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:28 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxxer600 View Post
FROM THE OP:
This is true. I find it very easy to only use the pegs to steer in at moderate to spirited speed. When im really trying to push it through a corner though I find it almost impossible to acheive the angle X I need without pushing on the bar. SO, I wanted to know if bar inputs will eventually make the front wash out. Cdill answered yes its ok but yes it might make the front wash out if done with to much force.

Everyone else is saying that they dont have to use bar inputs.

SO my next question is how are you achieving these lean angles without using the bars when your pushing a fast lap?

AND How are you increasing your lean angle in decreasing radius turns without using the bars when your pushing a fast lap?


Depending on who you talk to, you either steer with the pegs or you steer with the bars.


Ty Howard says to forget steering with the bars you steer with the pegs.

Keith Code has a motorcycle built with solid bars to prove that you CAN'T steer with the pegs.









Take your pick on this issue.





Also, lets be clear as to what we're talking about here: are we discussing mid-corner corrections or initial turn in? Your initial turn in may require a push on the bars to get the bike to go from bolt-upright to almost dragging a clip-on. However, once the bike is on its side, subtly adjusting your body position/weight balance (aka steering with the pegs) might be enough to affect a mid-corner correction.



Am I still being clear?
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:58 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxxer600 View Post


Geometry people think about it?
or
Its geometry people, think about it?
hahahaa
Sorry, I had to



What I mean is, if the bike is doing one thing and you want another, change the bike.
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Old 08-13-2009, 02:12 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROADandTRACK View Post



What I mean is, if the bike is doing one thing and you want another, change the bike.
My bike is going slow, I want it to go fast. Change the bike?
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