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Old 08-01-2009, 07:00 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
It makes me cringe when I read about people who have had a collision with a car or other solid object when, in their description, they talk about locking up the rear. No mention of front brake, just the rear... and boom a collision.
Not sure about other bikes, but on my 650r, the rear brake is incredibly soft. It would either require a very slippery road threshold or for the rider to apply a LOT of pressure on the rear brake pedal to initiate a slip.

As a new rider, I think it's good to form good habits regardless if they are needed in-the-now or not. It makes for a more prepared rider. I think the people that lock up rears tend to be the ones who never use it and when the oh--moment occurs, they panic and slam on the pedal without any experience of how much force causes road slippage.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:02 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ormand View Post
Not sure about other bikes, but on my 650r, the rear brake is incredibly soft. It would either require a very slippery road threshold or for the rider to apply a LOT of pressure on the rear brake pedal to initiate a slip.

As a new rider, I think it's good to form good habits regardless if they are needed in-the-now or not. It makes for a more prepared rider. I think the people that lock up rears tend to be the ones who never use it and when the oh--moment occurs, they panic and slam on the pedal without any experience of how much force causes road slippage.
I'm referring to people who predominately use the rear brake to stop the bike.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:05 PM   #43
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I'm referring to people who predominately use the rear brake to stop the bike.
Ah, gotcha
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:13 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
It makes me cringe when I read about people who have had a collision with a car or other solid object when, in their description, they talk about locking up the rear. No mention of front brake, just the rear... and boom a collision.
The fronts are easier to modulate and many people, since they only use the rear in a panic situation, lock it up and have no idea how to respond when the rear slews out.

You can say you're not buying it all you want - but simply and bluntly put, you're wrong. The rear will lighten up dramatically if you're using too much front brake too soon on a sport (or any other) bike for that matter. If you apply gradual and steady pressure to the rear and THEN the front, you decrease your stopping distances and retain control over the front and rear (you know, that end with the power going to it) of the bike.

Feel free to disagree, but good luck finding a single professional racer, trainer, bike cop or shriner who will agree with you. I mentioned cops and shriners because simply put, those guys can ride. Find one and I MIGHT rethink my position and give yours some credence, but until then, i'm going to go with my experience and the experience of those who are much better than me - and the engineers who design the things...and my understanding of physics and vehicle dynamics.....

Relying solely upon either the front or the rear brake does nothing for you but lengthen your stopping distances and increase the risk of an accident. Suggesting that it is useless can send a very bad message to those who are new to the motorcycling world.

By the way - yes, tapping the rear when its getting light and letting up on the front a bit WILL bring the rear back down.

What happens is this: You unload the front allowing weight to transfer off the front wheel and to the center of the bike. Tapping the rear causes weight to transfer to the back of the bike, and continuing the gradual pressure keeps it there. Then reapplying the front short of lockup causes a much more stable and balanced braking experience.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
I'm referring to people who predominately use the rear brake to stop the bike.
How in the do you do that? My rear is brake is .
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:20 PM   #46
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Wtf? Front brake increases stopping distance?
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:21 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ormand View Post
Not sure about other bikes, but on my 650r, the rear brake is incredibly soft. It would either require a very slippery road threshold or for the rider to apply a LOT of pressure on the rear brake pedal to initiate a slip.

As a new rider, I think it's good to form good habits regardless if they are needed in-the-now or not. It makes for a more prepared rider. I think the people that lock up rears tend to be the ones who never use it and when the oh--moment occurs, they panic and slam on the pedal without any experience of how much force causes road slippage.
Ignore him ormand, and keep using both of em. Simply put, maxgs is wrong. Its not opinion, it is plain simple fact. Using both shortens your distances and keeps the bike under better control. It also gets you in the habit of using it right so when you DO have that pucker moment, you dont freak and do the wrong thing.

In a panic situation, adrenaline is dumped pretty damned fast. The first thing to go is fine motor control. If you have continually trained your muscles to do the right thing when NOT in a panic situation, you are far more likely to do the right thing in a panic condition.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:22 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJFLo View Post
Wtf? Front brake increases stopping distance?
Not what was said.

I said: Relying SOLELY upon EITHER the front or the rear will do nothing but increase the stopping distances.

Now, you can feel free to argue with that, but good luck.

Reading for comprehension is a GOOD thing
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:25 PM   #49
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Have you ever hit your rear brake at the track? I actually just tapped the rear and I quickly found myself in the gravel pit.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:28 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJFLo View Post
Have you ever hit your rear brake at the track? I actually just tapped the rear and I quickly found myself in the gravel pit.
Keep practicing.

Let me put it this way - I'll take my big ole ~900lb Road Glide, with its worthless Hardley Abelson brakes and put it up against whatever you want to ride. You use just the front, i'll use em both. I promise you - after everything is measured, assuming you dont go over the bars and do some nipplesurfing, i'll stop in a shorter distance - or at least the same distance as your bike which weighs half as much. Then we can switch bikes and repeat and i'll promise you i will get a LOT shorter distances than you on your own bike. Dont worry - you cant do an endo on mine - the geometry wont allow it - but if you munge it up, its gonna cost ya
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:28 PM   #51
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Have you ever hit your rear brake at the track? I actually just tapped the rear and I quickly found myself in the gravel pit.
and maybe the problem comes from the operator and not the brake?


There's a front & back brake for a reason, learn to use both correctly.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:31 PM   #52
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I agree they are there for a reason, but in a situation where weight is quickly transfered to the front suspension the rear brake is not effective. Locking up the rear is almost instant.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:34 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJFLo View Post
I agree they are there for a reason, but in a situation where weight is quickly transfered to the front suspension the rear brake is not effective. Locking up the rear is almost instant.
If you learn to use them BOTH properly, weight wont be transferred entirely to the front.

Im not trying to be a - just stating simple and indisputable facts. The physics at work cannot be argued with because it is not opinion. It is provable and repeatable.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honorsdaddy View Post
The fronts are easier to modulate and many people, since they only use the rear in a panic situation, lock it up and have no idea how to respond when the rear slews out.

You can say you're not buying it all you want - but simply and bluntly put, you're wrong. The rear will lighten up dramatically if you're using too much front brake too soon on a sport (or any other) bike for that matter. If you apply gradual and steady pressure to the rear and THEN the front, you decrease your stopping distances and retain control over the front and rear (you know, that end with the power going to it) of the bike.

Feel free to disagree, but good luck finding a single professional racer, trainer, bike cop or shriner who will agree with you. I mentioned cops and shriners because simply put, those guys can ride. Find one and I MIGHT rethink my position and give yours some credence, but until then, i'm going to go with my experience and the experience of those who are much better than me - and the engineers who design the things...and my understanding of physics and vehicle dynamics.....

Relying solely upon either the front or the rear brake does nothing for you but lengthen your stopping distances and increase the risk of an accident. Suggesting that it is useless can send a very bad message to those who are new to the motorcycling world.

By the way - yes, tapping the rear when its getting light and letting up on the front a bit WILL bring the rear back down.

What happens is this: You unload the front allowing weight to transfer off the front wheel and to the center of the bike. Tapping the rear causes weight to transfer to the back of the bike, and continuing the gradual pressure keeps it there. Then reapplying the front short of lockup causes a much more stable and balanced braking experience.
i agree with everything but this.... and heres why

have you ever noticed that when a motocross racer taps the rear brake in mid air the front of the bike goes down? i have. ok now lets say you hop on your bike and tap the back brake going down the road. the front will dive just like hitting the front brakes just not as much.

i think what you where trying to say was.. by not using as much front brake a rider could use the back brake a little because the back isnt being pulled off the ground.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:37 PM   #55
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I agree they are there for a reason, but in a situation where weight is quickly transfered to the front suspension the rear brake is not effective. Locking up the rear is almost instant.
There would be a more balanced weight transfer with the proper use of the rear brake. There's no point in fighting physics.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:37 PM   #56
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Link please?
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:38 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJFLo View Post
Link please?
go read what i said theres proof in that
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:40 PM   #58
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Link please?
*sigh*

http://autopedia.com/stuttgart-west/...Physics01.html

Cager physics apply in bike world, too
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:43 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by AJFLo View Post
Link please?
Sure - here ya go: http://www.mit.edu/
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:44 PM   #60
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The fronts are easier to modulate and many people, since they only use the rear in a panic situation, lock it up and have no idea how to respond when the rear slews out.

You can say you're not buying it all you want - but simply and bluntly put, you're wrong. The rear will lighten up dramatically if you're using too much front brake too soon on a sport (or any other) bike for that matter. If you apply gradual and steady pressure to the rear and THEN the front, you decrease your stopping distances and retain control over the front and rear (you know, that end with the power going to it) of the bike.

Feel free to disagree, but good luck finding a single professional racer, trainer, bike cop or shriner who will agree with you. I mentioned cops and shriners because simply put, those guys can ride. Find one and I MIGHT rethink my position and give yours some credence, but until then, i'm going to go with my experience and the experience of those who are much better than me - and the engineers who design the things...and my understanding of physics and vehicle dynamics.....

Relying solely upon either the front or the rear brake does nothing for you but lengthen your stopping distances and increase the risk of an accident. Suggesting that it is useless can send a very bad message to those who are new to the motorcycling world.

By the way - yes, tapping the rear when its getting light and letting up on the front a bit WILL bring the rear back down.

What happens is this: You unload the front allowing weight to transfer off the front wheel and to the center of the bike. Tapping the rear causes weight to transfer to the back of the bike, and continuing the gradual pressure keeps it there. Then reapplying the front short of lockup causes a much more stable and balanced braking experience.
OK. Not only am I wrong, but Keith Code is wrong too...

"Rear Brake

It is my recommendation that you master using only the front brake
except when riding in slippery conditions. Locking the back brake also puts
the bike out of control. The rear wheel, spinning, provides the vast majority
of stability for the bike from the steering head back. In other words,
everything but the front-end is kept stable by the gyro force of the spinning
rear wheel.

The obvious mathematics of the situation are that the front wheel
can do 100 percent of the braking and the back at that point just locks up
no matter who you are. Learn to totally rely on the front brake for quick,
clean stopping; then, if you still have a use for the rear, go ahead and use
it. But realize that the rear brake is the source of a huge number of
crashes both on and off the track. I'll leave the final decision up to you.
While it is true for most riders that a motorcycle will come to a full stop
quicker with both brakes applied, in racing, you don't come to a full stop
until you're done."

So, what was it you were saying?
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