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Old 07-23-2009, 08:17 PM   #1
Grimace
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So what's up with back markers?

I, as I am sure is terribly obvious, am completely new to the track, but have a question. Every race that I have seen lately have had issues with back markers at the end of the race. If they are that much slower than the leaders then why are they there? If this is just a stupid question like all the others then I appoligize, but I really want to know. Are the leaders really so good that they can't find people that they won't lap? What the !I know that couldn't hold a candle to the slowest guy out there but why does it seem that these back markers are having such a large impact on racing results. It just doesn't seem right. Ok, the is ready to learn something.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:51 PM   #2
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:53 PM   #3
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ok, I just would have thought that there were enough people with the dream of racing that someone would be available that could actually compete.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:13 PM   #4
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Excellent question!

Where the fudge comes in is that the "rules" for each organization allow for pole 1 + x riders to "qualify" in order of time off the 1 pole position. What I don't know is why they don't cut them off by time after some limit? Lets say riders 2 - 15 respectfully are within 3 seconds of the number 1 pole and spot 16 is like 7 seconds off the leader why do they let that guy/gal race? Obviously at some point he/she is going to get lapped (given the length of the race)... simple math here folks.... I believe this is the meat of your question, correct?

So I think the answer is primarily money (just my opinion), AMA / DMG for example wants the entry fee and who cares about the race (dumb arses)! But I am not reaaaaaal sure about the rules across the board, they seem to be different but this happens in all the major race organizations, and to some extent everyone has a bad day in qualifying... Case in point MLadin in Mid-Ohio (9th on the grid but is usually 1)... so you do bad in qualifying but you kick in the race... it is totally possible, and who is gonna tell MLadin he can't be on the grid cause he blew super pole? Shiiiiit!

Great question though! I have noticed the same thing and often wondered why the rules allow this to happen... It is easily solved by doing simple math and coming up with a number off the pace that would most likely eliminate the problem. For example if the fastest guy is 1:26:00 per lap. the track is 2.0 miles, anyone that is 7 seconds off the pace will get caught in roughly 18 / 19 laps... Just so happens that if you look at the race results from Mid-Ohio lapped riders were hitting there fastest laps roughly 7 seconds off the winners pace and they were lapped around 17 or so...

Maybe they do this already and I am just a complete dumb , but if they do they don't know how to do math cause it aint working :-)
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:17 PM   #5
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They call me....Mr. Back marker.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:19 PM   #6
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They call me....Mr. Back marker.
Oh yeah they call me the waaaaay back marker
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:26 PM   #7
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They call me....Mr. Back marker.
Are you getting in the way on tv though? (assuming you are serious) I mean it is one thing to do it at an entry level, but I am talking about the higher levels of competition. Seriously. I want to see people at that level that i can look up too, not wonder why the they screwed up the race by not getting the out of the way.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:29 PM   #8
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I got labeled with that on another site because I am a newb, but I am planning to keep it even as I get faster. And I WILL get faster. I am not the smartest or the most stable, but I can really learn when I want to.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:30 PM   #9
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Isn't there some 10% rule in place? As in your lap times can't be more than 10% off the pole? I remember when the AMA had something like a 20% rule. Grids were almost ridiculous and they were lapping less than halfway through a race. Even at 10% rule, after 20-25 laps, there will be people getting lapped. Think of it like this if a pole lap is 1:30 and 10% of that is 9 seconds, you could qualify with 1:39 lap times. Races are 25 laps for the most part so you could get lapped around 10-11 laps into the race.

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Old 07-23-2009, 09:30 PM   #10
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and where the do you get those pictures gunshotwound??
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:31 PM   #11
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It always made sense to me that when you got into backmarker territory they should blue flag you and you should pit. However, sponsors, even on the slowest bikes, like their bike to be on track when the fastest guys come flying thru. They get a picture of their discount priced slower rider in the same frame with a hotshot on a factory machine. Put it on a poster and hang it up in their business. That's the only explanation I can give why they are allowed to stay out there.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:33 PM   #12
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Most classes do have a cut-off point for qualifying, and you find backmarkers in just about every race. Every org wants the field to fill to keep competition alive- nobody wants to see 3 people race all by themselves (which is what you had when it was only Spies and Mladin- the rest of the race wasn't even in the picture).

Sometimes backmarkers are racers that are having issues in that race, sometimes they are racers who are trying to sort things out for the next race and have thrown in the towel on this race, and sometimes they're racers who are just off the pace enough to get caught. In a 20-some lap race, if the guys at the back of the grid are 3 seconds off the qualifying, it won't take that long for the leaders to catch them depending on course length.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:36 PM   #13
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It always made sense to me that when you got into backmarker territory they should blue flag you and you should pit. However, sponsors, even on the slowest bikes, like their bike to be on track when the fastest guys come flying thru. They get a picture of their discount priced slower rider in the same frame with a hotshot on a factory machine. Put it on a poster and hang it up in their business. That's the only explanation I can give why they are allowed to stay out there.
Well ain't that about a bunch of bullshit! Take the best sport ever created and screw it up! Ah well, I guess that is just the way it is. You would think that the backmarkers themselves (I would do it) would have the sense to get out of the way! Maybe I am just being an idealist. Or simply naive or stupid. Whatever.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:40 PM   #14
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Most classes do have a cut-off point for qualifying, and you find backmarkers in just about every race. Every org wants the field to fill to keep competition alive- nobody wants to see 3 people race all by themselves (which is what you had when it was only Spies and Mladin- the rest of the race wasn't even in the picture).

Sometimes backmarkers are racers that are having issues in that race, sometimes they are racers who are trying to sort things out for the next race and have thrown in the towel on this race, and sometimes they're racers who are just off the pace enough to get caught. In a 20-some lap race, if the guys at the back of the grid are 3 seconds off the qualifying, it won't take that long for the leaders to catch them depending on course length.
Thanks for that perspective Tom, looks like I am going to learn something out of this thread. I am about 90 percent sure that I will see you at TWS (Texas World Speedway) on the 8th, assuming it isn't sold out. I am looking forward to learning as much as possible.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:48 PM   #15
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Thanks for that perspective Tom, looks like I am going to learn something out of this thread. I am about 90 percent sure that I will see you at TWS (Texas World Speedway) on the 8th, assuming it isn't sold out. I am looking forward to learning as much as possible.
Personally, I like backmarkers when I'm watching pro's race. To me, it adds that extra little bit of excitement as a viewer seeing the skillful/ not-so-skillful ways the leaders get through. Dealing with backmarkers can make or break a race win or finish off the podium all together.

I've never been a pro racer, so I can only speculate, but I'm sure pro racers do not share my perspective on this.

In my racing experience you deal with slower riders all the time- endurance racing. The big difference is that in endurance racing you have time to get around them unlike sprint racing which is much more important to get through faster.
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Old 07-28-2009, 04:23 PM   #16
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start racing CMRA, you will have backmarkers. they can be used as strategy or can ruin your strategy.

doesn't matter if it's club racing or pro racing....there will always be backmarkers. everyone's gotta start somewhere.

for those of you that are on backmarkers....i used to be one, and so have many other fast guys. doesn't matter if you're racing for 1st or battling for last place....you're still racing and that's what it's about. my hat goes off to the backmarkers, because it takes just as much dedication and motivation to be out there racing. they might not be winning the gold, but they are winners at heart for being there....i would give anything to be a backmarker in the AMA right now or any other pro racing for the matter....because it's another accomplishment that many cannot achieve. a lot of speculations going on without empathy. your opinion has no value if you've never experienced it.

if i paid to be there, i'm not going anywhere if you take my money.
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Old 07-28-2009, 04:41 PM   #17
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a lot of speculations going on without empathy.
Oh yeah? Well I don't care!

























Right on with your observations Tonytonytone
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Old 07-28-2009, 04:55 PM   #18
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Sometimes backmarkers are racers that are having issues in that race, sometimes they are racers who are trying to sort things out for the next race and have thrown in the towel on this race, and sometimes they're racers who are just off the pace enough to get caught.
Not sure why but Stoner comes to my mind for all categories mentioned above.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:02 PM   #19
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start racing CMRA, you will have backmarkers. they can be used as strategy or can ruin your strategy.

doesn't matter if it's club racing or pro racing....there will always be backmarkers. everyone's gotta start somewhere.

for those of you that are on backmarkers....i used to be one, and so have many other fast guys. doesn't matter if you're racing for 1st or battling for last place....you're still racing and that's what it's about. my hat goes off to the backmarkers, because it takes just as much dedication and motivation to be out there racing. they might not be winning the gold, but they are winners at heart for being there....i would give anything to be a backmarker in the AMA right now or any other pro racing for the matter....because it's another accomplishment that many cannot achieve. a lot of speculations going on without empathy. your opinion has no value if you've never experienced it.

if i paid to be there, i'm not going anywhere if you take my money.
Great post! I am still a back marker... as a matter of fact I am gonna put a road closed sign on the back of my leathers for you fast 's.... pull a JRP on your when you come by me

Just kidding but not about the road closed sign on my leathers
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:06 PM   #20
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i forgot to disclaimer, i wasn't directing my comment to anyone in particular...just wanna say it in general.

you guys see a lot of new racers Tom, and i'm sure you guys can judge their license school as to where they will place in the pack of a race, and i'm also sure you guys see the biggest smiles from the slower guys along with the faster guys.

people's comments about backmarkers and slower riders discourage others from trying to go out and race. i encourage everyone to go out, fast or slow....sign up for the race license with LSTD and get out there and race. it's a lot of fun, and we all gotta start somewhere. i was just as happy being a backmarker as i am a leader of the race.

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Right on with your observations Tonytonytone
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