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Old 07-10-2009, 09:56 AM   #101
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while turning and breaking is possible, it takes more effort to lean the bike while braking than it would if you were not on the brakes. I bet that is also the reason that is is easier to get through a corner if you are on the gas, it applies the force down so you get a little more traction coming out of the corner
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:57 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by OJgsxr View Post
So that being said braking/acceleration forces being applied in a lateral direction will cause force at a right angle to that force making the bike want to stand up.... correct?
that is how i understand it. I'm not a racer by any means, but physics of a gyro doesn't care if you are a racer or not.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:01 AM   #103
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True, ultimately it all breaks down to feel, but I like understanding what is going on with my bike as well. Not to insult the racers but most of them don't want to know exactly whats going on and/or don't think, a lot of what they do is reaction and putting thinking into the equation slows them down. Least that's how it was for me and soccer, if I did pure reaction and instinct I played much better than actually thinking about every little thing.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:05 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfuller View Post
while turning and breaking is possible, it takes more effort to lean the bike while braking than it would if you were not on the brakes. I bet that is also the reason that is is easier to get through a corner if you are on the gas, it applies the force down so you get a little more traction coming out of the corner
so wouldn't that mean that turning left is easier on the brakes while turning right is easier on the gas..........or vice versa?
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:06 AM   #105
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so wouldn't that mean that turning left is easier on the brakes while turning right is easier on the gas..........or vice versa?
i think so, unless braking is causing a reaction that tries to lift the bike, which would stand it up in either direction, and acceleration accually applies a force in the downward motion which would help with traction and lean in both directions. I'm not sure exactly which way applying the brakes initially acts and what the reaction is but I do know it's in 90 degrees of somewhere and that somewhere possibly changes depending on the lean, but to say that there is no effect while braking or accelerating is just dumb. it DOES have an effect. the faster you are going and the harder you try to brake, the more the forces become apparent
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:08 AM   #106
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Quote:
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Dean, I agree. This is way off topic from Brandt's initial post and I remain interested in the fast, hard core racers response.

This new topic also interests me, i.e. the suggestion that a bike on the brakes is harder to turn in. The only plausible argument, which has yet to be made, is in regards to the contact patch and friction circle. The brake force in the longitudinal direction reduces the available lateral traction on the contact patch. Specifically, there is only a limited amount of traction available. The more traction that is "consumed" braking, the less traction available for cornering.I've yet to read another viable explanation. Further, this explanation doesn't hold water particularly well either since racers use trail braking to manage the available traction right on the razors edge.

which is the reason the hardcore braking is done before turning in. You should not increse brake pressure when leaned over, instead you should be 'trailing off'-which puts us closer to the op's original question. the only reason you would run wide when braking is if you increase while leaned over lose the front end and have to stand the bike up to save it.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:08 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfuller View Post
while turning and breaking is possible, it takes more effort to lean the bike while braking than it would if you were not on the brakes. I bet that is also the reason that is is easier to get through a corner if you are on the gas, it applies the force down so you get a little more traction coming out of the corner
This is probably true, problem is this does not account for all "systems" (as put by popo) that effect turning a bike.........like suspension geometry changes.

Again, not taking a stance, im steering clear. But got to remember we are discussing bikes, and gyroscopes discussions are likely a big part, but not at all everything that accounts for a bikes turning characteristics which are undergoing constant change as suspension components move(which also include a rider).


Does anyone else feel like drinking already

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Old 07-10-2009, 10:15 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Brian f. View Post
This is probably true, problem is this does not account for all "systems" (as put by popo) that effect turning a bike.........like suspension geometry changes.

Again, not taking a stance, im steering clear. But got to remember we are discussing bikes, and gyroscopes discussions are likely a big part, but not at all everything that accounts for a bikes turning characteristics which are undergoing constant change as suspension components move(which also include a rider).


Does anyone else feel like drinking already
true, I just find it kind of interesting to try to understand how and why the bikes actually do what they do.

gyroscopic forces and wheelies... as you accerate hard, it puts more force in the downward motion at the back, if the back can't go down, then it raises the front. i know that is pretty simple but it puts it in perspective. that is why it's easier to wheelie at a lower speed, the change in velocity of the rotating mass is greater so you see more of a reaction
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:16 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
I think we need to seperate physics from "racer talk." Terms like "run wide" mean something a little different to different people. For instance: Take a single turn. Do all your braking before the turn. Take the same turn, trail brake instead of finishing all your braking beforehand. Apply an identical steering force (x). I'm saying that the bike will have a larger radius in situation B than in A (aka "running wide"). I think this is because the application of the brakes induces a force that FAR outweighs the reduction in angular momentum caused by the wheel slowing down.


A seperate question is whether or not the bike actually stands up. This one I've argued with several people, and I can't seem to come to a scientific conclusion. Most of the responses are similar to what you've said in your post "fast people do x so if it wasn't that way...why would they do it?"
Apply a steering force (we'll call it x) now get back on the gas. Forgot to include many facotrs here. Dependent on your def. of steering force, how much acceleration and when is it applied. If you go straight from trail braking to throttle you will run wide, but that has nothing to do with braking. If you apply maintenance throttle-depending how deep you are trailbraking then accelerate you shold not run wide. See how many factors are invlolved. TGhe op did notask to get science or physics involved. He wanted direction from the faster guys as to what technique they were applying and when. That will allow him to-based on many factors apply their technique and then improve his lap times.

I'm saying that the bike will have a larger radius in situation B than in A (aka "running wide").

b/c your on the gas too hard too early
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:16 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian f. View Post
Again, not taking a stance, im steering clear. But got to remember we are discussing bikes, and gyroscopes discussions are likely a big part, but not at all everything that accounts for a bikes turning characteristics which are undergoing constant change as suspension components move(which also include a rider).
so in order to test this we need to put my fat on a bike setup for your skinny . I'll sack out the suspension just sitting still so we can take that out of the equation.

Quote:
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Does anyone else feel like drinking already
Actually, this is WAY more interesting than the work I'm doing.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:18 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEAN LADEN View Post
I'm saying that the bike will have a larger radius in situation B than in A (aka "running wide").

b/c your on the gas too hard too early
Yes. but WHY, and what constitutes too hard?





And who cares what the OP wanted to know? He checked out a full page ago. This is the new topic.
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Last edited by Chubby Racer; 07-10-2009 at 10:20 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:21 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian f. View Post

Does anyone else feel like drinking already
I felt like drinking this morning when I woke up to make the day go faster but then I remembered I have to drive 3200 miles in the next 7 days

Ill ask Jason Pridmore when I see him on Monday in Colorado the answer to trail braking
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:56 AM   #113
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...............


Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Yes. but WHY, and what constitutes too hard?


a 1000 different factors, depending on
tires-their wear, pressures, riders weigth, name brand,
suspension-related to ride height, and many other variables
when and where hes braking to
when and where the acceleration is picked up and how hard
where the rider is looking
year make and model of bike
weight of bike
weight of rider
rider's mindset
skill of the rider must be included too
etc etc etc

And who cares what the OP wanted to know? He checked out a full page ago. This is the new topic.
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Old 07-10-2009, 12:20 PM   #114
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okay, you guys just confused the outta me. i'm not sure who i agree with, or who i don't.

i must've mis-read some posts or somethin.....

who the cares about all that mumbo jumbo gyro shmyro stuff....half of us barely finished high school.
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:37 AM   #115
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i cant stop thinking of all that mumbo jumbo gyro shmyro stuff,after all its what keeps the bike upright.and same time what fights you when initiating the lean.
when some pull on the bars hard enought into the turn,the engine's gyro force want to remain in the same axis.so in other words the bars are going one way and the bottom half of is going the opposite.thats why you're supposed to weight the pegs not pull the bars......or tank.
regardless some good fast riders can do very well without knowing or caring about this...
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:08 PM   #116
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how did i miss this awesome thread ......

i want to be fast

Last edited by mekrew; 07-11-2009 at 11:12 PM.
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