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Old 07-09-2009, 09:12 PM   #81
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I didn't read the whole thread so I'm only going to post up what I briefly saw and say give my opinion. You ask anyone who is quick, or at least a front running novice or most experts about bike set-up... the bike is set-up to be slightly nose high, normally. You do this so the bike exits corners well BUT still turns in quickly because your braking hard enough to compress the front and effectively raise the rear, thus making the bike turn quicker. And as far as braking Brant, every corner you run the bike in as deep as you can on the brakes while still being able to track a line that will set you up for the proper exit... do you think Mladin, Bayliss, Spies any of those guys are being ***s on the brakes ANYWHERE? No way! They are braking as deep as the bike will allow on the fastest line, and neither should you... push to YOUR limits to carry the proper line there should be no coasting... fast in, and fast out.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:36 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
Ha ha ha ha.
Watch the gyroscope video before laughing. You, of all people, I would figure would be interested in the physics.
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:34 AM   #83
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As speed decreases, gyroscopic forces decrease....

If you've come up with something that causes gyroscopic forces to increase as speed decreases, you are going to be a very wealthy man.
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:49 AM   #84
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You havent seen me at a track day lately, and wont see me for a while because I am convinced that there is less than a handfull of people that can actually help me become faster (local people). And those people are either too busy or not willing to help someone they see as a threat, so I will be sitting out until I can make it to a AMA recognized track to ride with some real talent and get some good advice from people that actually know what they are doing. I'd rather pay $1g for an hour with someone that knows than spend $1g for 5 track days with people that dont know.
Your best bet is to contact former 2-time world champion (250cc Grand Prix and WSBK) John Kocinski about private lessons.
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Old 07-10-2009, 08:18 AM   #85
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Quote:
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As speed decreases, gyroscopic forces decrease....

If you've come up with something that causes gyroscopic forces to increase as speed decreases, you are going to be a very wealthy man.
it's not gyroscopic forces that increase. As you apply a force to stop the rotating mass... that will inherently apply a force at 90 degreees i believe to the right from the direction of rotation. so if you are turning right, it will help the bike fall into the corner, as you turn left, it'll try to stand the bike up. I'm not 100% positive on this but i remember hearing and reading something like that in my avaition classes in college, they were talking about gyroscopic precession. but that was about 7 or 8 years ago
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Old 07-10-2009, 08:45 AM   #86
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Quote:
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As speed decreases, gyroscopic forces decrease....
Yes. If we hold the radius fixed, and apply no forces to the system, a slower rotating object will have less gyroscopic effect.

However, thats not the system we're talking about. We're talking about a system where a force IS being applied: either the brakes or the gas.
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Old 07-10-2009, 08:56 AM   #87
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Sorry to thread jack but this thread isn't even close anymore.

If as speed decreases then gyroscopic forces decrease and turning a tighter radius should be the result.

Why is it harder to turn a bike in when on the brakes? You are decreasing the gyroscopic forces it should be easier.

Also when mid-corner and you apply braking doesn't it stand the bike up? Could this be due to rider reaction or changes in the geometry of the bike?

Curt you can describe it technically since I am also technically inclined (EE as well), I am fairly curious about this.
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:00 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Yes. If we hold the radius fixed, and apply no forces to the system, a slower rotating object will have less gyroscopic effect.

However, thats not the system we're talking about. We're talking about a system where a force IS being applied: either the brakes or the gas.
either way a dumb a-z-z kid like myself with a new orleans high school education knows from experience when i am on the brakes turning in the bike does not run wide. Nor does Ty Howards. Can not apply physics here unless you include and account for all factors, which the thread does not. Nor did the op ask for a physics answer where calculations, and studies are taken in order to come to a complete resolution. Simply put howdo the fast guys brake when going into corners, and specifically a sweeper as opposed to a tight corner. Ok flame me now
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:00 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Yes. If we hold the radius fixed, and apply no forces to the system, a slower rotating object will have less gyroscopic effect.

However, thats not the system we're talking about. We're talking about a system where a force IS being applied: either the brakes or the gas.
There is no argument whether a bike resists turning when on the gas, that is obvious.

The question is whether a bike on the brakes is harder to turn in. For all the aforementioned reasons in my previous post, suggesting that a bike wants to run wide when on the brakes appears antithetical to the physics as does the suggestion that the bike is harder to turn in when on the brakes. If that were the case, then why do racers trail brake?

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Old 07-10-2009, 09:02 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
There is no argument whether a bike resists turning when on the gas, that is obvious.

The question is whether a bike on the brakes is harder to turn in. For all the aforementioned reasons in my previous post, suggesting that a bike wants to run wide when on the brakes appears antithetical to the physics as does the suggestion that the bike is harder to turn in when on the brakes. If that were the case, then why do racers trail brake?

-Curt
Good question Curt!
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:08 AM   #91
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either way a dumb a-z-z kid like myself with a new orleans high school education knows from experience when i am on the brakes turning in the bike does not run wide. Nor does Ty Howards. Can not apply physics here unless you include and account for all factors, which the thread does not. Nor did the op ask for a physics answer where calculations, and studies are taken in order to come to a complete resolution. Simply put howdo the fast guys brake when going into corners, and specifically a sweeper as opposed to a tight corner. Ok flame me now
Dean, I agree. This is way off topic from Brandt's initial post and I remain interested in the fast, hard core racers response.

This new topic also interests me, i.e. the suggestion that a bike on the brakes is harder to turn in. The only plausible argument, which has yet to be made, is in regards to the contact patch and friction circle. The brake force in the longitudinal direction reduces the available lateral traction on the contact patch. Specifically, there is only a limited amount of traction available. The more traction that is "consumed" braking, the less traction available for cornering.

I've yet to read another viable explanation. Further, this explanation doesn't hold water particularly well either since racers use trail braking to manage the available traction right on the razors edge.

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Old 07-10-2009, 09:15 AM   #92
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Harder to turn in doesn't necessarily mean impossible, they just apply more force to the handle bars to make the bike turn?

In my limited experience (I'm quick but by no means fast) when braking coming into a corner it is much harder to get the bike to turn in, but not impossible. Could this be due to loading the front wheel, and making the gyroscopic forces more of a factor? Since the gyroscopic are affected by the gravitational force as well as rotational mass and adding in additional reaction forces causes the gyroscopic forces to be amplified?
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:18 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
The question is whether a bike on the brakes is harder to turn in. For all the aforementioned reasons in my previous post, suggesting that a bike wants to run wide when on the brakes appears antithetical to the physics as does the suggestion that the bike is harder to turn in when on the brakes. If that were the case, then why do racers trail brake?

-Curt
I think we need to seperate physics from "racer talk." Terms like "run wide" mean something a little different to different people. For instance: Take a single turn. Do all your braking before the turn. Apply a steering force (we'll call it x) now get back on the gas. Take the same turn, trail brake instead of finishing all your braking beforehand. Apply an identical steering force (x). I'm saying that the bike will have a larger radius in situation B than in A (aka "running wide"). I think this is because the application of the brakes induces a force that FAR outweighs the reduction in angular momentum caused by the wheel slowing down.


A seperate question is whether or not the bike actually stands up. This one I've argued with several people, and I can't seem to come to a scientific conclusion. Most of the responses are similar to what you've said in your post "fast people do x so if it wasn't that way...why would they do it?"
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:21 AM   #94
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Another interseting question that probably relates to all of this so I'll throw it out:

Why does a shaft drive bike Always scoot to the same side under hard acceleration, like when you're trying to wheelie?
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:26 AM   #95
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Quote:
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Another interseting question that probably relates to all of this so I'll throw it out:

Why does a shaft drive bike Always scoot to the same side under hard acceleration, like when you're trying to wheelie?
that would be the exact opposite of what i stated above... if you are trying to slow a rotaional amass, then you'll encounter a force at 90 degrees from the direction of rotation. the same applies to accelerating that rotational mass but it will react in the opposite 90 degree of rotation.

I'd be willing to bet that carbon fiber wheels don't make it quite as hard to turn in while on the brakes? stopping a lighter rotational mass exerts less force due to having less kinetic energy
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:30 AM   #96
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Im to stupid to speak physics, and dummy like me can only rely on the teachings of others and to affraid to try otherwise. Im taking no stance here, i only supply what a fast man teaches, so dont kill the messenger.


6:20-end in this video closely relates to the discussion at hand


Just another brief of Ty explaining
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:38 AM   #97
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read this... especially the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs under description. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope

as you apply a force in the once direction on a moving gyroscope, you get a force in another direction. applying brakes or the gas in applying force in one direction so you will get a reation in another direction. this reaction would be more noticeable the more you are leaned over and involving 3 axis
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:38 AM   #98
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can't watch youtube at work. All you slack that get to I'm jealous.
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:53 AM   #99
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http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...gyroscope.html

When a force applied to a gyroscope tends to change the direction of the axis of rotation, the axis will move in a direction at right angles to the direction in which the force is applied. This motion is the result of the force produced by the angular momentum of the rotating body and the applied force. A simple example of precession can be seen in the rolling hoop: to cause the hoop to turn a corner, guiding pressure is not applied to the front or rear of the hoop as might be expected, but against the top. This pressure, although applied about a horizontal axis, does not cause the hoop to fall over, but causes it to precess about the vertical axis at right angles to the applied pressure, with the result that it turns and proceeds in a new direction.
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:56 AM   #100
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So that being said braking/acceleration forces being applied in a lateral direction will cause force at a right angle to that force making the bike want to stand up.... correct?
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