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Old 12-10-2007, 03:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denhou1974 View Post
I've been following this story since it happened.

Cop spent way too much time with this guy. Write him a ticket and send him on his way. After all, It takes two to argue. Cop was too set on 'winning' this argument rather than letting it go so he figured that he'd arrest the guy (that'll show 'em who's boss ... right?).
How do you know he was going to arrest the guy initially? I'm speaking at the point of asking him to step out of the vehicle. It is not known if that was his intent. I see cops speaking to individuals outside of the car everyday up and down 290W. Whether the cop was "set on winning the argument" is relative. Have you considered the possibility that that was simply his personality? Perhaps he is not the type to back down. The civilian was being an in the beginning. I saw nothing that the cop said or did up to the point of tasering him that said he acted outside the realm of the power vested in him and the realm of legality.

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Originally Posted by denhou1974 View Post
Considering that the arrest was in fact legal the outcome should've been: Idiot #1 should be charged with resisting arrest, idiot #2 should be fired for excessive force. If you watch the video you'll see that he went for the taser immediately after putting his book on the car. Almost as if he planned on using it all along.
Again, could the reason that he goes for the taser immediately have anything to do with the individual whom he asked to step out of the vehicles body language when following him to his police cruiser? You have to consider what risks cops are taking pulling people who they've never encountered without any back up, essentially by themselves. They don't know if the guy they are pulling over is a violent criminal. All they have to go on is instinct and if he felt threatened by the guys body language then he was justified in reaching for the taser immediately. It is not as if he tased the guy immediately is it? He asked SEVERAL TIMES for the guy to turn around and the guy failed to follow the simple direction. He also had a hand in his pocket which very well could have been concealing a weapon of some kind. The cop was acting out of pure instinct and imo, justifiably so.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
How do you know he was going to arrest the guy initially? I'm speaking at the point of asking him to step out of the vehicle. It is not known if that was his intent. I see cops speaking to individuals outside of the car everyday up and down 290W. Whether the cop was "set on winning the argument" is relative. Have you considered the possibility that that was simply his personality? Perhaps he is not the type to back down. The civilian was being an in the beginning. I saw nothing that the cop said or did up to the point of tasering him that said he acted outside the realm of the power vested in him and the realm of legality.

Again, could the reason that he goes for the taser immediately have anything to do with the individual whom he asked to step out of the vehicles body language when following him to his police cruiser? You have to consider what risks cops are taking pulling people who they've never encountered without any back up, essentially by themselves. They don't know if the guy they are pulling over is a violent criminal. All they have to go on is instinct and if he felt threatened by the guys body language then he was justified in reaching for the taser immediately. It is not as if he tased the guy immediately is it? He asked SEVERAL TIMES for the guy to turn around and the guy failed to follow the simple direction. He also had a hand in his pocket which very well could have been concealing a weapon of some kind. The cop was acting out of pure instinct and imo, justifiably so.
If the two men are arguing the last thing you'd want the driver to do is step out of the vehicle. That being said, I doubt he was pulling him out of the car just to chat. If so, why would the officer need to put his book down unless he intended to use both hands for something (like handcuffing)?

Like I said, write him a ticket and send him on his way. Utah law says that the officer could've written 'refused to sign' on the ticket and ended the stop. The officer escalated the situation by ordering the guy out of the vehicle - to arrest or otherwise.

If it's simply the Trooper's personality that he cannot handle a simple situation without escalation then he probably needs to look for a new career.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:14 PM   #23
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If the two men are arguing the last thing you'd want the driver to do is step out of the vehicle. That being said, I doubt he was pulling him out of the car just to chat. If so, why would the officer need to put his book down unless he intended to use both hands for something (like handcuffing)?

Like I said, write him a ticket and send him on his way. Utah law says that the officer could've written 'refused to sign' on the ticket and ended the stop. The officer escalated the situation by ordering the guy out of the vehicle - to arrest or otherwise.

If it's simply the Trooper's personality that he cannot handle a simple situation without escalation then he probably needs to look for a new career.
1) You can doubt all you want, but neither you or I can verifiably give the cops reasoning for asking the gentleman out of the vehicle. Perhaps he was going to arrest him, perhaps he was going to sit him in the vehicle and run his information. WE DON'T KNOW.

2) Failure to comply is a crime is it not?

3) That Utah law you cited seems to be a discretionary item. Given that, it is at the Leo's discretion whether or not his course of action was warranted. I could see if he was acting outside of the realm of the law, according to this vid and when ran against the laws themselves, he broke no law.


Our opinion of how things should work have no legal bearing, if we have a problem with the laws then we should address the laws themselves...
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
1) You can doubt all you want, but neither you or I can verifiably give the cops reasoning for asking the gentleman out of the vehicle. Perhaps he was going to arrest him, perhaps he was going to sit him in the vehicle and run his information. WE DON'T KNOW.

2) Failure to comply is a crime is it not?

3) That Utah law you cited seems to be a discretionary item. Given that, it is at the Leo's discretion whether or not his course of action was warranted. I could see if he was acting outside of the realm of the law, according to this vid and when ran against the laws themselves, he broke no law.


Our opinion of how things should work have no legal bearing, if we have a problem with the laws then we should address the laws themselves...
1 & 3) This implies that he was going to arrest the man:
"Well, you are going to sign this first," Gardner said.
After refusing, Gardner asks Massey to exit the SUV, which at 2:23 minutes into the video, he does.


According to Utah law there's no reason for the officer to require a signature. At that point it turned into a p1ssing match and should have not been escalated any further. If it were me, I would write 'refuse to sign' on the ticket and explain to the man that he would still be cited. End of stop.

This is what the Trooper told the second officer that arrived:
"I said, 'Hop out, put your hands behind your back.' He didn't do it," Gardner told his colleague

^ Not exactly what happened. Why lie?
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by denhou1974 View Post
1 & 3) This implies that he was going to arrest the man:
"Well, you are going to sign this first," Gardner said.
After refusing, Gardner asks Massey to exit the SUV, which at 2:23 minutes into the video, he does.


According to Utah law there's no reason for the officer to require a signature. At that point it turned into a p1ssing match and should have not been escalated any further. If it were me, I would write 'refuse to sign' on the ticket and explain to the man that he would still be cited. End of stop.

This is what the Trooper told the second officer that arrived:
"I said, 'Hop out, put your hands behind your back.' He didn't do it," Gardner told his colleague

^ Not exactly what happened. Why lie?
Each his own, you see it one way and I another. I simply ask this: Did the officer break the law?

If not, then there is no real discussion here.

As to the officer's account of that day's event's, I credit plasticity of memory.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:58 PM   #26
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Each his own, you see it one way and I another. I simply ask this: Did the officer break the law?

If not, then there is no real discussion here.

As to the officer's account of that day's event's, I credit plasticity of memory.
Yes, I think that he did break the law. He assaulted the man. Is the UHP going to clear him? yes they will. Imagine what the liablity would be if they admitted that he was wrong.

What would you have done it that situation? Would you order a guy out of his car then turn your back on him? I would if I were looking for a reason to tase some idiot and get away with it. Gardner is a 14 yr vet of the UHP. He knew exactly what he was doing.

Here's a good quote:
"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. "

Sir Robert Peel, founder of the concept of the policing profession.
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Old 12-10-2007, 05:11 PM   #27
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Yes, I think that he did break the law. He assaulted the man. Is the UHP going to clear him? yes they will. Imagine what the liablity would be if they admitted that he was wrong.
In what way did he assault the man? Did the alleged assault take place before or after a direct failure to obey an officer of the peace? Motive and incentive is irrelevant to me so long as you haven't yet proved that an assault took place. An assault allegation would have to have disregarded the FACT that the civilian DID fail to obey. The guy basically gave the officer the green light to do whatever necessary (non-fatal) to restrain him when he failed to yield. I ask again, is not failure to obey a crime?

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What would you have done it that situation? Would you order a guy out of his car then turn your back on him? I would if I were looking for a reason to tase some idiot and get away with it. Gardner is a 14 yr vet of the UHP. He knew exactly what he was doing.
This is all inflammatory and circumstantial. Nothing absolute or verifiable here. You are projecting what YOU would have done given the same circumstance. There is no way of knowing whether or not this was the line of reasoning adhered to by the Police officer at the time of the incident. All we can go off of is what we can see in the tape. Most importantly is that the officer presented the ticket, asked that it be signed, asked the gentleman out of his vehicle, asked that the gentleman turn around with his hands behind his back and a number of those commands were disobeyed. This in and of itself makes void any idea that an assault took place. Guess we'll agree to disagree though, let's see how it plays out in court IF the case goes any further.
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Old 12-10-2007, 05:13 PM   #28
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NO WAY!!!!

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Old 12-10-2007, 07:13 PM   #29
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In what way did he assault the man? Did the alleged assault take place before or after a direct failure to obey an officer of the peace? Motive and incentive is irrelevant to me so long as you haven't yet proved that an assault took place. An assault allegation would have to have disregarded the FACT that the civilian DID fail to obey. The guy basically gave the officer the green light to do whatever necessary (non-fatal) to restrain him when he failed to yield. I ask again, is not failure to obey a crime?

This is all inflammatory and circumstantial. Nothing absolute or verifiable here. You are projecting what YOU would have done given the same circumstance. There is no way of knowing whether or not this was the line of reasoning adhered to by the Police officer at the time of the incident. All we can go off of is what we can see in the tape. Most importantly is that the officer presented the ticket, asked that it be signed, asked the gentleman out of his vehicle, asked that the gentleman turn around with his hands behind his back and a number of those commands were disobeyed. This in and of itself makes void any idea that an assault took place. Guess we'll agree to disagree though, let's see how it plays out in court IF the case goes any further.
He made the decision to tase the guy when he told him to step out of the vehicle. He got tired of arguing with the guy and was gonna give him a "ride with the taser" (his words). That's why it's assault. You can throw legal verbage at it all day long but that's what happened.

Trdvet - He had drawn his taser well before the man attempted to walk off or before he had put his hand in his pocket.

Simple solution would've been to write 'refuse to sign' on the ticket and let him go. That would mean no tasing, no YouTube video, no investigation, no MH thread, and the guy still has a speeding ticket to take care of. Simple.

That's ok though .... Gardner "won" (I guess).
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Old 12-10-2007, 08:07 PM   #30
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You don't know what the Trooper was thinking. Simple solution is to comply with the orders of the Trooper. Simple.

No tasing, no youtube video, no investigation, no MH thread, and the guy still has a speeding ticket to take care of.
Fact is, the best way to deal with a confrontation is not to have one in the first place. I watched the video several times. The officer is in the power position and had plenty of chances to diffuse the situation. But he didn't - he escalated it. If his ego is as fragile as it appears in the video then I think he should find a new career. Dealing with the public isn't his cup of tea.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:39 AM   #31
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You don't know what the Trooper was thinking. Simple solution is to comply with the orders of the Trooper. Simple.

No tasing, no youtube video, no investigation, no MH thread, and the guy still has a speeding ticket to take care of.
+1, Had the guy just followed simple directions, there would be no confrontation.

DenHou1974|
With everything you have to say on the matter, you (DenHou1974) fail to address one simple question I asked: Did the "assault" occur before or after he blatantly disregarded the officer's directions? The secondary, but equally important question was whether or not failure to obey was a crime? Bottom Line: Once we answer these two questions, the fella who was tased can be easily determined to be in the wrong.

/my last entry on the matter
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:30 PM   #32
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NO WAY!!!!

armchair cops > UHP!!!
ha! you're the armchair cop! you're just as one-sided as most of the cop-haters. i've never seen you say one even potentially negative thing about a cop..it's almost like you love them.
well, some of us have had different, less romantic perhaps, experiences with them.
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:33 PM   #33
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well, some of us have had different, less romantic perhaps, experiences with them.
maybe there's a reason why?

armchairing is where your judging them on their duties and telling them how to do their job.....ever heard armchair quarterbacking.
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:56 PM   #34
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what reason is that?
i don't think there's anything wrong with judging their duties.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:03 PM   #35
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nothing, but hindsight is 20/20, if we could do "it" over a 2nd time we'd surely get it right that time.

life isn;t like that.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:57 PM   #36
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nothing, but hindsight is 20/20, if we could do "it" over a 2nd time we'd surely get it right that time.

life isn;t like that.
should we not judge anyone's work performance? or is it just cops?
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:26 PM   #37
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No one is saying that but people like to use hindsight 20/20 when they call someone on something. Of course everyone would make different choices if they could go back and do something differently.

In 1989 the United States Supreme Court held that determinations about the Constitutional appropriateness of police force usage – deadly or not – must be “judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.”
racer x said it. he said everyone judges cops like it's a bad thing. i get judged at my job all the time, and on by customers, and i deal with them respectfully.
of course you have to understand the situation from the officer's perspective- i won't disagree with that.
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