Poll on seperation of church and state

[Patrick]

AGREE OR DISAGREE?


This is by a daughter of a murdered couple in Raytown who had a
Bible and Bookstore on 63rd street.

When I had to testify at the murder trial of my parents a week ago,
I was asked to raise my right hand. The bailiff started out "Do you
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?"

I stood there and waited but she said nothing. She said "Do you?"

I was so stunned I blurted out "What happened to "so help me God'?"



She came back with "Do you?" I replied yes, but I was perplexed.



Then the judge said ................ "You can say that if you want to."

I stopped, raised my right hand, and finished with "So help me God!"



I told my son and daughter that when it came time for them to testify, they should do the same.

It's no wonder we have so many problems in this country. If I'd had my wits about me I'd have told them that taking God out of the courtroom is only going to result in more criminals and murderers like him being in there! I don't know what can be done about it, but it's time we stepped up and did something.

NBC this morning had a poll on this question. They had the highest number of responses that they have ever had for one of their polls, and the percentage was the same as this: 86% to keep the words, 14% against. That is a pretty 'commanding' public response.

I was asked to send this on if I agreed or delete if I didn't. Now it is your turn... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God.


Therefore, I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Why don't we just tell the 14% to Sit Down and be Quiet,..... for a change!!!


Now I'm not the most religious man in the room, I have somewhat my own ideas of spirituality and my own code of honor / ethics, but I do agree with this.
I grew up in schools where you said the pledge of allegiance, including one nation under God, said a prayer in the locker room before the game, and could say Merry Christmas without some fascist ACLU lawyer stepping in and saying it was "unconstitutional".
What's your opinion?


Patrick
I grew up saying the pledge of allegiance

[chasee69]

why force your religous veiws on other people.

[Ramius]

The laws that govern our country were based apon the laws of the Bible.
Since we've been trying so hard to get rid of God from our schools, our laws and our nation I've noticed a steady decline in the very moral fiber of our country, look at how short everyone is on the road, so much road rage it makes you afraid to switch lanes anymore. Look at all of the drugs and sexual depravity and suicide rates facing our school system today. Even look at the number of natural disasters that have been plauging (sp?) us, these things aren't happening because God has neglected us, these things are happening because we've neglected God. I firmly believe that with everything I have.

No wonder so many people are killing themselves, if they think this is as good as it gets and theres nothing better out there heck, I'd want to die too, but the truth of the matter is this is merely a stepping stone and much better things await us, thats why it's so important to not be passive christians but be active ones and spread the word, preach to people about how much God has done for you and blessed your life, if you do this your whole life and only reach 1 person it's worth it. The more Gods message is blocked by anti-christian liberalist nay-sayers the harder we should preach, let them laugh and let them persecute for to suffer in the name of Christ is Divine and that is exactly how I feel.

[Ramius]

P.S. if this is your story and not a copy paste I'm terribly terribly sorry for your loss and I will be praying for you, I thought you seemed stressed the other day when I came in but I had no idea this was why. I'm Sorry.

[Ramius]

why force your religous veiws on other people.

If you saw a man droiwning would you force your Life Raft at him?

[yankee]

I was just having this same discussion a few weeks back..around Christmas time. We had a company email sent that said happy holidays, I was wondering why it didnt say Merry Christmas and I was told that the company couldnt say that. I honestly think its getting way out of hand!!

[Patrick]

Ramius, it is a copy and paste, I put a description in the beginning.

chasee69,
I'm not forcing my religious views on people, but the minority are forcing theirs on me, and retricting my beliefs.
If you don't want to say the pledge, fine, don't.
If you don't want to say "Merry Christmas", fine don't.
But don't tell me that I can't.
As far as a belief in God goes, that's cool if you choose not to believe.
I just don't want to be told that if I believe in one, or, if the schools teach that there MAY be one, that it is against the law.

I believe all rational viewpoints should be at least acknowledged by schools. It's your choice what you do with that information. As Ramius pointed out, this nation was founded by a belief system based on God and the 10 commandments. It's worked well for over 200 years.

I actually believe in less Government, but at this point the "so called liberals" are telling me more than ever what I can and cannot do.

I guess I'm just sick and tired of a very vocal minority deciding that it offends them if I believe in a God, any God for that matter.

Patrick



Patrick

[Ramius]

I guess I'm just sick and tired of a very vocal minority deciding that it offends them if I believe in a God, any God for that matter.

Patrick



Patrick

I agree 100%, thats the problem with being nice to everyone, after a while people start to take advantage, we should draw the line somewhere.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

NBC this morning had a poll on this question. They had the highest number of responses that they have ever had for one of their polls, and the percentage was the same as this: 86% to keep the words, 14% against. That is a pretty 'commanding' public response.

I was asked to send this on if I agreed or delete if I didn't. Now it is your turn... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God.


Therefore, I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance.


these seem like uneducated, made up numbers

"If you saw a man droiwning would you force your Life Raft at him?"

not really the same as forcing religious views.... not a good comparison my friend... but then again, i dont feel as though patrick was forcing religious views. personally, i am unable to make up my mind if there might be a higher being in another universe, or if there is anything at all. but i do believe in morals, and i dont think that changing words in our pledges, or in the court room, is gonna make a more distinct separation between church and state. i do believe that with the whiny asses out there crying about changing up these words is getting ridiculous, and is showing us (the younger generation,) just how pussy we really are, crying like a bunch of lil bitches! about a couple of words in a pledge.

"It's no wonder we have so many problems in this country. If I'd had my wits about me I'd have told them that taking God out of the courtroom is only going to result in more criminals and murderers like him being in there! I don't know what can be done about it, but it's time we stepped up and did something."

i do not believe this true either... a criminal is just that! "a criminal"! their not gonna light at heart, and become a good person because the baliff happend to throw the words "so help me god" into the sworn in process.


just my .02...

[AliceInChains02]

this will be a good poll for getting shit started :keke: not that i'm against that. things change. just because you grew up saying the pledge of allegiance doesn't mean you should be stuck in your ways and close minded about it. i actually felt a resentment at being forced to pledge allegiance to my country, i thought and still think that you can't make someone love their country, especially when they are in 1st grade and have no idea what they are even saying. getting a bunch of 1st graders to mindlessly drone something they don't even understand every morning seems more like brainwashing to me, or at least is severely lacking in any sincerity. i can't remember seeing any kids EVER enthusiastic about pledging to the flag, and very few probably cared when they took Under God out, just 2 less words between them and the seat. some people grew up during segregation, but i doubt anyone here would go so far as to say that desegregation was a bad thing. as far the happy holidays thing, the employees of stores are representing the stores, so if the store doesn't want people saying merry christmas, then that's there business. even the ultra-right wal-mart enacted the happy holidays greeting, even though you won't be seeing too many menorahs in the store.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

I believe all rational viewpoints should be at least acknowledged by schools. It's your choice what you do with that information. As Ramius pointed out, this nation was founded by a belief system based on God and the 10 commandments. It's worked well for over 200 years.

Patrick


the romans were paganistic, and alot of their government was influenced with pagan views... their culture ruled for 2000 years, yet they arnt here now....
"As Ramius pointed out, this nation was founded by a belief system based on God and the 10 commandments. It's worked well for over 200 years." this proves nothing other than, we are a very young country. i would say that the nation was founded on moral beliefs, not the 10 commandments...

although, i do not believe we should allow the liberals the power to start changing sh!t... and controling more of our lives!

[AliceInChains02]

oh yeah, and that's real clever promoting her beliefs on the foundation of her parents death. kinda like that lady that was camped outside of Bush's ranch for a while. of all the stuff she could've chosen to bitch about, she gets upset about a couple of words being taken out of the oath. what about her parents violent death? i guess she could put that behind her more easily :eh:

[p0opstlnksal0t]

this will be a good poll for getting shit started :keke: not that i'm against that. things change. just because you grew up saying the pledge of allegiance doesn't mean you should be stuck in your ways and close minded about it. i actually felt a resentment at being forced to pledge allegiance to my country, i thought and still think that you can't make someone love their country, especially when they are in 1st grade and have no idea what they are even saying. getting a bunch of 1st graders to mindlessly drone something they don't even understand every morning seems more like brainwashing to me, or at least is severely lacking in any sincerity. i can't remember seeing any kids EVER enthusiastic about pledging to the flag, and very few probably cared when they took Under God out, just 2 less words between them and the seat. some people grew up during segregation, but i doubt anyone here would go so far as to say that desegregation was a bad thing. as far the happy holidays thing, the employees of stores are representing the stores, so if the store doesn't want people saying merry christmas, then that's there business. even the ultra-right wal-mart enacted the happy holidays greeting, even though you won't be seeing too many menorahs in the store.

:angry7:

[p0opstlnksal0t]

oh yeah, and that's real clever promoting her beliefs on the foundation of her parents death. kinda like that lady that was camped outside of Bush's ranch for a while. of all the stuff she could've chosen to bitch about, she gets upset about a couple of words being taken out of the oath. what about her parents violent death? i guess she could put that behind her more easily :eh:


i was thinking the same thing when i read dat shit... kinda degrading to her beliefs, using her parents death as a booster of sympathy.... i think i would have other things on my mind if my parents were brutally murdered... like, how can i track this fucker down, and torture his a$$

[Patrick]

I guess my whole point is this; I don't try to force my belief system on others, but I don't think anyone should start restricting anyone elses right to believe in what they want.
I think we all have a right to believe in what we want without someone telling us it offends them.
The whole Merry Christmas thing this year got out of hand. I mean come on, it offends you because I say that?


Patrick

[p0opstlnksal0t]

I guess my whole point is this; I don't try to force my belief system on others, but I don't think anyone should start restricting anyone elses right to believe in what they want.
I think we all have a right to believe in what we want without someone telling us it offends them.
The whole Merry Christmas thing this year got out of hand. I mean come on, it offends you because I say that?


Patrick


i too... was disgusted that it got so bad this year.... i i dont even believe in god!!!!! u know its bad when an atheist tells you its gotten outta hand!

[arturo3rd]

The US constitution was written around the Bible. i say dont force something on people but also dont get upset if it is or isnt said.

[AliceInChains02]

i can kind of understand why big business don't want employees endorsing any specific religion, including christianity....because someone will get offended. of course it's a complete catch 22 and there's no way everyone's gonna be happy. i think christians need to be more christ like and need to show some understanding. they to understand there are some people who will be offended, or made uncomfortable at least, by being wished a merry christmas, since not everyone celebrates christmas.

[arturo3rd]

Happy Chinese New Year!!

[Patrick]

What is it this year, the year of the dog?


Patrick

[fuknrobert]

i don't believe the government should have so much connection with religion.

there's a thin line between forcing your views on everyone and believing in your own. if you want to pray, fine. do it quietly and away from me. i'm not interested in hearing it at work, at school, or in places of business. how would you feel if a satanist was doing this in the same places... would you object then?

here's an example of what i mean...
a guy in our office is a true believer (no not in spiderman). he's so proud and loud about it, that he leaves notes for everyone. he writes scriptures around the office, on notepads, behind timesheets, on the dry erase boards... it's fucking ridiculous. i think he's a wacko. i've told him before that i don't want to see it in my paperwork anymore, so he's stopped. but everyday there's something new on the board. and because of our boss (who is another believer) nothing changes. i'm not the kind of person that will go and tattle-tell, and he's a really good guy. nice, happy, and cool to talk to but how can you tell me that shit is not annoying? he says something about it in every other conversation. bleh.

[arturo3rd]

i think that was last year or maybe the Year of the Cock. please tell me Happy New Year, or i will also be offended.

[AliceInChains02]

i'm already offended that no one knows what year it is

[bmc350]

Happy Chinese New Year!!


Don't say that! I'm not Chinese! That offends me.


Ha ha Ha ha Ha.

Christmas really isn't about any religious stuff anymore. It's all about spending money and so forth. To me it will always be "Merry Christmas" because that's how it was when I was growing up.

[bmc350]

a guy in our office is a true believer (no not in spiderman). he's so proud and loud about it, that he leaves notes for everyone. he writes scriptures around the office, on notepads, behind timesheets, on the dry erase boards... it's fucking ridiculous. i think he's a wacko. i've told him before that i don't want to see it in my paperwork anymore, so he's stopped. but everyday there's something new on the board. and because of our boss (who is another believer) nothing changes. i'm not the kind of person that will go and tattle-tell, and he's a really good guy. nice, happy, and cool to talk to but how can you tell me that shit is not annoying? he says something about it in every other conversation. bleh.

Those are the guys that scare the piss out of me...

[Patrick]

Robert, I see your point and you're right, I can't stand for someone to force their beliefs upon me.

Arturo,
No really, it is the year of the dog. And Happy New year!


Patrick

[chasee69]

If you saw a man droiwning would you force your Life Raft at him?

if give him the option to take it but if he wanted to drown then id let him

[hotcknstrips]

I'm not a religious man, but I agree the whole Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas thing is ridiculus. And I agree with Patrick 100%, and this country ,at least to me, represent the very essence of liberty, that's one of the reasons why I decided to migrate from my home country, even when every time I see things like cops beating the shit out of someone on the ground makes me doubt that, but getting back to the liberty thing here, If I express my views on a certain topic, and just that, a view, because I would never try to force my views on someone else, not even my children!, I'm just expressing how I feel and think about something, and the guy next to me gets offended, sorry, hell, I'm not even sorry, but I don't give a rat's ass.

I respect every religion, I have friends from every major religion, and if you respect a person, you should respect his views, because that's what you expect from everybody else.

That's one of the things I'm scare shitless about raising my son,I want him to be a person of good morals, and to me, morals have absolutely nothing to do with religion, hell, just look at some people of the same religion killing their own people, mainly Christians and Muslims, because they have different views, and on what?? RELIGION!!

I will raise my son with good morals, and I will not try to stuff any religion down his throat, when he's old enough , he will choose wheter to follow any religious group or denomination.

[fuknrobert]

arturo is a super saiyan? errr i mean asian???

[arturo3rd]

arturo is a super saiyan? errr i mean asian???
im black and a horse is hung like me, not vice versa

[bentgixxer]

i am not a very religious person at all. and it drives me apeshit when people try to preach at me. folks at the grocery stores and malls trying to hand out pamphlets, on street corners. " do you trust in god and the bible? " i hate those people. i dont believe in the bible as a religious book. the bible is a farse. it was written so long ago, it is nothing but the game of telephone now. it says exactly what people along the way have wanted it to say. how is it there are different " versions " of the bible. thats just proof of the above stated.

i believe there is a god, and i believe there is a better place when you die. if it is god and heaven i dont know, but the bible is a load of crap in my mind.


my 2 cents

[PORSCHITO]

but the bible is a load of crap in my mind.


take ur 02 cent back... the only crap here is whats coming out of your mouth...

[Patrick]

O.K. guys, please keep it civil. I started this because I was really interested in differing opinions, not to start a shit storm.


Patrick

[arturo3rd]

take ur 02 cent back... the only crap here is whats coming out of your mouth...
good way to ruin a civil discussion. :eh:

[KalmarJoe]

I read the bible, and I realize that it is not the exact word of god. Most versions of the bible have been translated through 5 or 6 different languages before reaching english, and some versions have gone before church councils where they determined which parts to cut. But the bible is full of stories, good stories that come from people that lived in the time of our savior Christ. Many from people close to Christ.

Yes, the stories are to be taken with a grain of salt, but the bible is merely a tool. Take from it the message behind the story, not necessarily the story itself.

Porschito, I know you are defending the bible, but Tolerance is once of the key messages in the bible.

[PORSCHITO]

oh so its ok to say that the bible its a bunch of c..p

im still civil, just like he expressed his opinion im expressing mine...

(its seems like its ok to attack christianity but its not ok to defend it ...)

[Patrick]

No, it's o.k., but simply defend it in a more civil / intelligent manner and you will make more headway.


Patrick

[PORSCHITO]

Porschito, I know you are defending the bible, but Tolerance is once of the key messages in the bible.

i believe in tolerance but jesus himself exploded in rage when he entered the temple and saw people doing wrong ... so when u see something wrong or said wrong its ok to say enough ;)

[arturo3rd]

i believe in tolerance but jesus himself exploded in rage when he entered the temple and saw people doing wrong ... so when u see something wrong or said wrong its ok to say enough ;)
dont compare what yourslef to jesus.

[bentgixxer]

O.K. guys, please keep it civil. I started this because I was really interested in differing opinions, not to start a shit storm.


Patrick


like he said, this is a forum of opinions, im not trying to start anything with anybody. im just expressing my point of view, and i dont blame porschito, if you are a devout christian, i can understand you being mad at what i said, but dont attack me because you dont like my beliefs.

[fuknrobert]

"jesus is my homeboy"

lol

and what's up with the fish symbol??

[Patrick]

this life is a test, it is only a test- had this been a real life, it would've come with instructions

LMAO, where did you get that from?

Patrick

[bentgixxer]

made it up, just popped up in my head one day

[Patrick]

Funny stuff, and so true!


Patrick

[PORSCHITO]

like he said, this is a forum of opinions, im not trying to start anything with anybody. im just expressing my point of view, and i dont blame porschito, if you are a devout christian, i can understand you being mad at what i said, but dont attack me because you dont like my beliefs.

u can express any opinion you want and i am not attacking you as a person or your beliefs ... if you noticed i specifically highlited the insulting part your saying...

[hotcknstrips]

I think that saying " I don't believe in the bible" instead of "the bible is full of crap" woulda been more civilized, you're entitled to your opinion, as any human is, but I think your choice of words was lacking just a little.

Porshito, I totally understand your position, but when one get's passionate about a subject, one looses, against our worst enemy, ourselves.

Please guys, let's keep this under control, or I'll be forced to say"ah, fuck it" lol :hello:

[PORSCHITO]

no my point is the following:
its not ok to be racial, its not ok to discreminate against gay, but its ok to talk all the shit you want about christianity ..... if you dont believe good for you... if you have a different religion i respect that ... but talking shit about my religion is unacceptable... as a matter of fact go tell a muslim the same about a quraan and live to talk about ....

[JJO]

Patrick--------------

2006=year of the dog

[flipboy326]

"jesus is my homeboy"


+1
:notworthy

[fuknrobert]

so patrick, back to your original post...

motohouston.com votes are pretty different from the original (86%?) poll.

i think their poll was fixed

[KalmarJoe]

so patrick, back to your original post...

motohouston.com votes are pretty different from the original (86%?) poll.

i think their poll was fixed


Once the motohouston poll reaches 800-900 polled, then it'll be a better litmus test as to how accurate the first poll was.

[Los]

+1 for God. I actually got upset how people wanted the media to express Merry Christmas as Happy Holidays and then taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. :angry7:

[BigC]

Well everyone this is a very touchy issue. Myself as a believer in Christ is that I never try and force religion or believes on anyone. For the record I am a Christian but I'm not religious. Reason being that I'm not religious is that you can be Catholic, Baptist, Buddist, or be a devil worshipper and be religious, but do you have a relationship or direct access to the god you serve. The God I serve is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, and everything that I have read in the Bible in Revalations has so far happened.
It's funny how when 9-11 happened the whole nation was praying ( if not most ) but the minute things r ok and @ the moment not threatening once again we have forgot about Christ. When something detrimental happens what is the first thing most people say? " Oh my God." Truth of the matter is - time will tell anything. Time will tell on Earth and when you die, your soul will go somewhere. Heaven and Hell is a choice.

[911TurboS]

This country would be a better place if everyone believed in God. My life is a lot better then it use to be before I had God involved with my life.

To everyone who does not believe in God. I would like to say that you owe it to yourself to go to church at least once to see what it is really like. The church I go to (Fellowship of the Woodlands) is very different then most churches. They actually had a pro motocross rider doing stunts inside the church, which all went to understanding the message the preacher was talking about. I go to church every Sunday to learn how to live a better life by becoming a better person. Why would you not want to live a better life and become a better person?

www.FOTW.org
http://fotw.org/aboutus/whatwebelieve.asp

[BigC]

Outstanding Bro, Outstanding. Let me know where your church is at. I and the members of my congregation would love to visit.

[fuknrobert]

If you got motocrossers stunting at church I'll go. Is that collection plate part of the entry fee? kidding!

I agree that religion in most people's lives makes them a better person. However, that doesn't mean it should be forced as part of our government. Yes, give us the option to believe in what we want... but don't force us to. Keep it seperate. Vote God for president if you want, but he'll never show for the inaugeration.

[AliceInChains02]

i completely disagree that christianity is in any way related to being a good person. i had to do community service at a church/business and it was horrible. they treated us like animals, gave us drinks that were covered in roach shit, worked us like dogs, and just looked down on us like we were the scum of the earth. they were so obsessed with money it just blew my mind. the main guy, who is close friends with the Bush family, even came down to personally pick up a donation for himself(portable DVD player), which is a pretty low thing to do considering how loaded he is. i know plenty of good christians also, my mom being one. but i think there is probably the same amount of good to bad people, christian or non christian. TRUE christians, those who try to be like christ, are good people i know. but i don't think even 5% of people who call themselves christian are really christian

[Patrick]

i think their poll was fixed

The demographic for here is probably a lot narrower than a national one. The age group is probably a lot narrower as well. But right now as it stands it's 71 % pro and 29 % against. 24 votes total 17 for, 7 against.
Most of the responses so far have been interesting to read and help show both sides of the coin.


Patrick

[p0opstlnksal0t]

i am not a very religious person at all. and it drives me apeshit when people try to preach at me. folks at the grocery stores and malls trying to hand out pamphlets, on street corners. " do you trust in god and the bible? " i hate those people. i dont believe in the bible as a religious book. the bible is a farse. it was written so long ago, it is nothing but the game of telephone now. it says exactly what people along the way have wanted it to say. how is it there are different " versions " of the bible. thats just proof of the above stated.

i believe there is a god, and i believe there is a better place when you die. if it is god and heaven i dont know, but the bible is a load of crap in my mind.


my 2 cents


this is gonna catch alot of heat.... ill just say that i am not religious, and not really sure if i believe in a higher form of being ( in another universe).
i just read your post, and i dont feel as though your being disrespectful, just expressing your views. but remember, this "farse" book, is the most widely known/and respected book in all of mankind. and it deserves a little more respect, even if i dont believe that it is devine word, many people base their entire lives around that book.
i believe in christ as well, it logically follows that if Jesus Christ lived (need it be said?), he must have been born. The Gospels tell us that his birth was shortly before Herod the Great died. Herod's death can be fixed with certainty. so im sure jesus lived, but i do not believe that jesus was concieved by the holy spirit, and i guess thats where my faith is shaded. i think that joseph and mary concieved the child out of wedlock, and told a story to keep themselves from falling under frowning eyes.

this is just my opinion... i am always open to new facts, and new science, that may prove me wrong.... but faith is not science, so i tend to not see faith, as fact.

[bigcomfy]

Seperation between Church and state is part of why this country is so great... so sorry if 86% of the population is offended.

[Chris24]

i think its good they took "under god" out of the pledge of alliegance. i mean what if some kid is a taoist or atheist or believes in some other religion...YOU just took away HIS freedom of religion....

as far as prayer in schools, i say give all students a 10-15 min break or two during the day...if they want to pray, thats up to them. you can do what you want just dont force anyone.

as for the analogy someone said before, about if you see someone drowning would you force your life raft at them...i see your point...but what if that person says, im fine...i can swim, then leave him alone. you can offer him the raft again, but no...dont force it. ive been in situations where people have tried to sway my beliefs, and its very uncomfortable. i see it as harrasment if it goes too far.

the main thing is allowing freedom without forcing...allow prayer, but dont force it. hell, if people *want* to say under god, at the end of the allegiance, let them...but if you do than people need to have the freedom to add "under whoever" as well.

it really pisses me off, that our country was founded by christians fleeing religious persecution, and then when starting a new world, they preach freedom of religion...until their numbers grow...and then they force their religion onto others...yea, good job hypocrites, way to set an example.

FYI, alot of my beliefs are based on christianity. i have a 3 year old son. say he were to go to public schools in a few years...i would be delighted to hear he was praying in school...but only if he is doing it on his own. if its forced its no different than homework, and that would upset me...and i also feel adding under god to the allegiance falls into that category.

[bentgixxer]

i just read your post, and i dont feel as though your being disrespectful, just expressing your views. but remember, this "farse" book, is the most widely known/and respected book in all of mankind. and it deserves a little more respect, even if i dont believe that it is devine word, many people base their entire lives around that book.



but also, just pointing out a little known fact. the bible is THE most STOLEN book in the history of books. isnt that a little ironic??

i know im going to catch heat, but thats how i feel about it. like you said, until it is proven to me otherwise, thats my view.


and some churches are greedy, anyone heard of living stones church in alvin??
so much damn money, go kart tracks, bumper boats, small water park, climbing tower, all on church grounds. a little excessive to me.

[Moody]

Wow, I am staying out of this one until I can sit and write something meaningful. I will say this... If you knew you had a week to live what would you do? Now go do it! :icon_thum

[Patrick]

the main thing is allowing freedom without forcing...allow prayer, but dont force it. hell, if people *want* to say under god, at the end of the allegiance, let them...but if you do than people need to have the freedom to add "under whoever" as well.

I agree, however you are NOT allowed to say "under God" because it may offend someone. Just like it's no longer "politically correct" to say Merry Christmas. That's where my issue comes in.
No, I don't want to push my beliefs on anyone else, but at the same time I don't want some ACLU puke lawyer bringing suit against me if I simply express mine. i.e. saying "under God" at the end of the pledge, or wish someone a "Merry Christmas"

Patrick

[Moody]

I agree, however you are NOT allowed to say "under God" because it may offend someone. Just like it's no longer "politically correct" to say Merry Christmas. That's where my issue comes in.
No, I don't want to push my beliefs on anyone else, but at the same time I don't want some ACLU puke lawyer bringing suit against me if I simply express mine. i.e. saying "under God" at the end of the pledge, or wish someone a "Merry Christmas"

Patrick
Hey Patrick, Thanks for the Christmas card. :icon_thum

[Patrick]

You're welcome!
Now please don't sue! :eh:


Patrick

[Moody]

You're welcome!
Now please don't sue! :eh:


Patrick
Yeah I am calling the ACLU now. :laughing6

[TooBuku]

speration of church and motohouston.

[marlboroman71818]

why should someone have to "take" under god out of the pledge. it was already there under the foundation of this great nation. instead of removing it from the pledge why cant the people who are non beleivers just not recite that part. i respect other peoples religions, in fact i have a christian base but have beliefs of my own. the only religion that i do have a problem with satanism. and about the bible, they say its the most stolen book but any real christian would be happy that someone has the book at their cost. who did the studys on that? how did they know that it was stolen. they give them out for free all the time. also i want to keep this debate freindly so no name calling please

[Ramius]

i think its good they took "under god" out of the pledge of alliegance. i mean what if some kid is a taoist or atheist or believes in some other religion...YOU just took away HIS freedom of religion....

as far as prayer in schools, i say give all students a 10-15 min break or two during the day...if they want to pray, thats up to them. you can do what you want just dont force anyone.

as for the analogy someone said before, about if you see someone drowning would you force your life raft at them...i see your point...but what if that person says, im fine...i can swim, then leave him alone. you can offer him the raft again, but no...dont force it. ive been in situations where people have tried to sway my beliefs, and its very uncomfortable. i see it as harrasment if it goes too far.

the main thing is allowing freedom without forcing...allow prayer, but dont force it. hell, if people *want* to say under god, at the end of the allegiance, let them...but if you do than people need to have the freedom to add "under whoever" as well.

it really pisses me off, that our country was founded by christians fleeing religious persecution, and then when starting a new world, they preach freedom of religion...until their numbers grow...and then they force their religion onto others...yea, good job hypocrites, way to set an example.

FYI, alot of my beliefs are based on christianity. i have a 3 year old son. say he were to go to public schools in a few years...i would be delighted to hear he was praying in school...but only if he is doing it on his own. if its forced its no different than homework, and that would upset me...and i also feel adding under god to the allegiance falls into that category.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/dseratt/colin/e39ae2b7.jpg

[AliceInChains02]

I agree, however you are NOT allowed to say "under God" because it may offend someone. Just like it's no longer "politically correct" to say Merry Christmas. That's where my issue comes in.
No, I don't want to push my beliefs on anyone else, but at the same time I don't want some ACLU puke lawyer bringing suit against me if I simply express mine. i.e. saying "under God" at the end of the pledge, or wish someone a "Merry Christmas"

Patrick
I don't think you are right about NOT being allowed to say "under god" at all because it may offend someone. If I'm wrong, I'd like to see an article showing so. Under God was just added in 1954, which happens to fall in the mccarthy years, just like the PATRIOT act was passed right after 9/11. presidents always try to pass stuff when they get high approval ratings after something tragic or whatever, kind of like the woman in this article. Plus, I don't know why you go after ACLU so much, from what I've read they aren't so bad. I saw something on the History Channel just the other day about a Jewish ACLU lawyer who defended some Nazis' rights to march in a town full of holocaust survivors. That seems pretty admirable to me.

[Patrick]

In the beginning the ACLU was a good organization, however it's morphed into a tool to actually limit our freedoms.
Google ACLU cases and you'll see a bunch of examples.

I'll give you one example; The Boy Scouts have used land on military bases for their Jamborees since their inception.
Not anymore. In a class action suit by the ACLU, because the Boy Scout oath contains; To do my duty to God, it makes them a "religious" organization.
Therefore the military, which is run by the government, can't offer the land to them for use during the Jamboree because it is a violation of separation of church and state.
Here's the kicker, no one was complaining, the ACLU took it upon themselves to launch this attack.


Patrick

[Patrick]

One more thing. Did you know that the ACLU has some of the best Pro Bono lawyers in the country?
The reason why? If they win a case against the Federal Government by manipulating the legal system the Government is REQUIRED by law to reimburse the ACLU for their legal expenses, which the ACLU then pays their "pro bono" lawyers with. In other words the money comes out of our pockets.

It used to be that a "liberal" believed in LESS government. Unfortunately that's changed.
I believe in less Government but at this point the "so called liberals" are telling me more than ever what I can and cannot do.
Where will it end?



Patrick

[Moody]

I don't think you are right about NOT being allowed to say "under god" at all because it may offend someone. If I'm wrong, I'd like to see an article showing so. Under God was just added in 1954, which happens to fall in the mccarthy years, just like the PATRIOT act was passed right after 9/11. presidents always try to pass stuff when they get high approval ratings after something tragic or whatever, kind of like the woman in this article. Plus, I don't know why you go after ACLU so much, from what I've read they aren't so bad. I saw something on the History Channel just the other day about a Jewish ACLU lawyer who defended some Nazis' rights to march in a town full of holocaust survivors. That seems pretty admirable to me.
And that was a complete bastardized situation because Frank Collin had stated that he was an army ready for war. Once he stated that he should have been labeled an enemy of the state. The freedom of speech only extends to those who claim they are Americans. He claimed he was a Nazi and was building an army that was was ready for war. That my friend is an enemy. One which the ACLU defended. That is a joke but, he probably learned from a history lesson of the previous fuehrer Rockwell because he has backed out of the spotlight since that incident.

[AliceInChains02]

In the beginning the ACLU was a good organization, however it's morphed into a tool to actually limit our freedoms.
Google ACLU cases and you'll see a bunch of examples.

I'll give you one example; The Boy Scouts have used land on military bases for their Jamborees since their inception.
Not anymore. In a class action suit by the ACLU, because the Boy Scout oath contains; To do my duty to God, it makes them a "religious" organization.
Therefore the military, which is run by the government, can't offer the land to them for use during the Jamboree because it is a violation of separation of church and state.
Here's the kicker, no one was complaining, the ACLU took it upon themselves to launch this attack.



Patrick
Actually, the boy-scouts are somewhat of a religious organization, when you consider the fact they have a history of banning atheists/gays from joining. If that's not religious, I don't know what is.

[Patrick]

And what of the miltary's stance on Gay's? Does that make them a "religious" organization?
Actually in the Boy Scout case the ACLU specifically targeted the phrase in the oath as the basis for their case.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm very middle of the road.
Not particularly "religious" and have very diverse views on a lot of subjects.
However I'm concerned when anyone gains so much power and influence that they begin to threaten my personal beliefs.

As far as the Nazi's right to march, here's the flip side: What about the Holocaust survivor's rights to live without torment or reminder of what they had been through?


Patrick

[AliceInChains02]

And what of the miltary's stance on Gay's? Does that make them a "religious" organization?
Actually in the Boy Scout case the ACLU specifically targeted the phrase in the oath as the basis for their case.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm very middle of the road.
Not particularly "religious" and have very diverse views on a lot of subjects.
However I'm concerned when anyone gains so much power and influence that they begin to threaten my personal beliefs.

As far as the Nazi's right to march, here's the flip side: What about the Holocaust survivor's rights to live without torment or reminder of what they had been through?


Patrick

As for the military, well yeah, sometimes they kind of border on religious. I personally would be scared to say "I'm Muslim" or "I don't believe in Jesus" in the Army.
Maybe the ACLU gets out of hand sometimes, but you can say that for just about anyone, but I'd have to see something pretty damning for me to condemn them altogether.
The Nazis vs. Holocaust survivors, I'd definitely feel more sympathy for the survivors, and it's definitely a conflict on several levels, but I still feel a sort of admiration for a man who could defend the people who have killed so many of his people, simply out of his devotion for the Constitution.

[Racer X 05]

Let me ask you who disagree with Patrick. I was a youth minister for 11 yrs. and still to this day volunteer my time to to different youth groups. There was this 12 year old young man who attend church where a ministry partner of mine was speaking at, he was told that the yound man was suspended for his his report on who his hero was. The young man(and I call him that and not kid or boy for the way he stood up for himself) wrote that his hero was none other than JESUS CHRIST. He was told that his report was not acceptable and he needed to pick another person. He refused and he even went on to say to the teacher that he come from a single parent home and that it was just him and his mom and JESUS really was his hero for what HE had done in his life. He said he did not write the report on a dare or to be rebellious, but the he really did feel this way. Reguardless he was suspended until an attorney heard about this and got the young man's suspension over turned and he was able to return to school
however he was not allowed to read his report due to the possibility of it offend any of his classmates. What if this was your child? What if you didn't believe but you allowed your child the freedom to choose for themselves and this happend? SAD a young man gets done like this but, a movie about 2 gay cowboys get such praise and awards!!!!!!!!

[AliceInChains02]

an atypical, and rather dramatic story, bravo. i bet every church within 1000 miles still tells that same story every year, and what's the point? some teacher got a little overzealous? i went to school for a while also, and i Never saw anything like this. there was christian paraphanelia decking the halls incessantly and no one cared. here's a dramatic story you may be familiar with. there was a boy who grew up to be a famous rock star. then his band broke up. then a christian gunned him(John Lennon) down outside his hotel 10 years later. there's always going to be freak occurences. christians aren't always in the right and neither are overzealous teachers.

[BrutusTx]

Now I'm not the most religious man in the room either, and I grew up in schools where you said the pledge of allegiance, including one nation under God, said a prayer in the locker room before the game, and could say Merry Christmas. And those of us that DID NOT do these things had that right, without consequence...........it appears that it's a one way street. IMHO

[3D02]

I'm a middle of the road kind of person too. I just recently found out that the school my kids are in don't don't do Halloween type stuff. Its known as "Fall Festival" or some benign term. No Santa Claus display's of any kind.
Soon we'll all be living in an Orwellian-Matrix-Soylent Green type of world.

[Moody]

Soon we'll all be living in an Orwellian-Matrix-Soylent Green type of world.
Soon is an understatement.

[Racer X 05]

but they love the witchcraft for kids like Harry Potter,

[AliceInChains02]

but they love the witchcraft for kids like Harry Potter,
lmao :laughing6 :laughing6

[dhdrider]

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God.

The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.

The two above paragraphs were taken from the read referenced below...

This is a very good read:
http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

[Moody]

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God.

The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.

The two above paragraphs were taken from the read referenced below...

This is a very good read:
http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

Very Professional

[AliceInChains02]

when was public prayer banned? last i heard you can still VOLUNTARILY pray, you are just not forced to anymore.

Masterbation is an expression of lust. And lust is sin. It's as simple as that.
Abstinence includes abstinence from masterbation, and holiness includes not masterbating in marriage.

Also from that site, but who here adheres to that?

You can also check out how abortion is linked to witchcraft in the "hard-hitting" video, Massacre of Innocence, which is endorsed by this site.

PS, I don't usually trust sites that can't spell MASTURBATION.

[Moody]

when was public prayer banned? last i heard you can still VOLUNTARILY pray, you are just not forced to anymore.

Masterbation is an expression of lust. And lust is sin. It's as simple as that.
Abstinence includes abstinence from masterbation, and holiness includes not masterbating in marriage.

Also from that site, but who here adheres to that?

You can also check out how abortion is linked to witchcraft in the "hard-hitting" video, Massacre of Innocence, which is endorsed by this site.

PS, I don't usually trust sites that can't spell MASTURBATION.
Good rebuttle.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

Let me ask you who disagree with Patrick. I was a youth minister for 11 yrs. and still to this day volunteer my time to to different youth groups. There was this 12 year old young man who attend church where a ministry partner of mine was speaking at, he was told that the yound man was suspended for his his report on who his hero was. The young man(and I call him that and not kid or boy for the way he stood up for himself) wrote that his hero was none other than JESUS CHRIST. He was told that his report was not acceptable and he needed to pick another person. He refused and he even went on to say to the teacher that he come from a single parent home and that it was just him and his mom and JESUS really was his hero for what HE had done in his life. He said he did not write the report on a dare or to be rebellious, but the he really did feel this way. Reguardless he was suspended until an attorney heard about this and got the young man's suspension over turned and he was able to return to school
however he was not allowed to read his report due to the possibility of it offend any of his classmates. What if this was your child? What if you didn't believe but you allowed your child the freedom to choose for themselves and this happend? SAD a young man gets done like this but, a movie about 2 gay cowboys get such praise and awards!!!!!!!!


they would probably not allow a report on santa clause either.
the facts are... we are not positive if jesus led the life he is so famous for. of course i do believe jesus existed, i do not believe he was concieved by god. nor do i believe he reserected. basically their is no facts to back up his life, just faith... and when i was younger, i had faith in santa clause. but we all know he doesnt exist. im not saying jesus wasnt worthy of a report. just that yall have faith that he did what he did.... not facts! so until the facts are observed, you cant write a factual type report if there isnt much factual evidence supporting it.

[Moody]

Yes...

I can’t believe the news today
Oh, I can’t close my eyes and make it go away
How long...
How long must we sing this song?
How long? how long...

’cause tonight...we can be as one
Tonight...

Broken bottles under children’s feet
Bodies strewn across the dead end street
But I won’t heed the battle call
It puts my back up
Puts my back up against the wall

Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday (sunday bloody sunday...)
(allright lets go!)

And the battle’s just begun
There’s many lost, but tell me who has won
The trench is dug within our hearts
And mothers, children, brothers, sisters torn apart

Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday

How long...
How long must we sing this song?
How long? how long...

’cause tonight...we can be as one
Tonight...
Tonight...

Sunday, bloody sunday (tonight)
Tonight
Sunday, bloody sunday (tonight)
(come get some!)

Wipe the tears from your eyes
Wipe your tears away
Wipe your tears away
I wipe your tears away
(sunday, bloody sunday)
I wipe your blood shot eyes
(sunday, bloody sunday)

Sunday, bloody sunday (sunday, bloody sunday)
Sunday, bloody sunday (sunday, bloody sunday)
(here I come!)

And it’s true we are immune
When fact is fiction and tv reality
And today the millions cry
We eat and drink while tomorrow they die

The real battle yet begun (sunday, bloody sunday)
To claim the victory jesus won (sunday, bloody sunday)
On...

Sunday bloody sunday
Sunday bloody sunday...

[p0opstlnksal0t]

U2 lyrics... hmmm

i see

[Moody]

U2 lyrics... hmmm

i see
It was the content not the group or who was singing it. Because I am sure you were singing it to yourself. :icon_bigg

[dhdrider]

when was public prayer banned? last i heard you can still VOLUNTARILY pray, you are just not forced to anymore.

Masterbation is an expression of lust. And lust is sin. It's as simple as that.
Abstinence includes abstinence from masterbation, and holiness includes not masterbating in marriage.

Also from that site, but who here adheres to that?

You can also check out how abortion is linked to witchcraft in the "hard-hitting" video, Massacre of Innocence, which is endorsed by this site.

PS, I don't usually trust sites that can't spell MASTURBATION.

This wasn't a discussion about sin. That is a whole other topic. This was about the 1st ammendment. That's all. I didn't refer to that website as a good read for everything. I just thought it was a well-written bit about an accurate interpretation of the 1st amendment. The problem w/ this amendment is too many people take it out of context, mis-interpret it, or mis-use it. Much like the 2nd amendment. Many people use the "I have the right to bear arms" argument when referring to the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment actually says "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Too many people forget the part about "a well-regulated militia..." But we'll save the 2nd amendment debate for another day. :icon_thum

[AliceInChains02]

okay, maybe you can explain to me what humanism is and how it is a religion....because when i read the word "humanism", scientology comes to mind

[3D02]

Did everyone have a Merry Festivus?

[AliceInChains02]

good ol seinfeld :happy3:

[p0opstlnksal0t]

okay, maybe you can explain to me what humanism is and how it is a religion....because when i read the word "humanism", scientology comes to mind


googled info:

The word "humanism" has a number of meanings, and because authors and speakers often don't clarify which meaning they intend, those trying to explain humanism can easily become a source of confusion. Fortunately, each meaning of the word constitutes a different type of humanism -- the different types being easily separated and defined by the use of appropriate adjectives. So, let me summarize the different varieties of humanism in this way.

Literary Humanism is a devotion to the humanities or literary culture.

Renaissance Humanism is the spirit of learning that developed at the end of the middle ages with the revival of classical letters and a renewed confidence in the ability of human beings to determine for themselves truth and falsehood.

Cultural Humanism is the rational and empirical tradition that originated largely in ancient Greece and Rome, evolved throughout European history, and now constitutes a basic part of the Western approach to science, political theory, ethics, and law.

Philosphical Humanism is any outlook or way of life centered on human need and interest. Sub-categories of this type include Christian Humanism and Modern Humanism.

Christian Humanism is defined by Webster's Third New International Dictionary as "a philosophy advocating the self- fulfillment of man within the framework of Christian principles." This more human-oriented faith is largely a product of the Renaissance and is a part of what made up Renaissance humanism.

Modern Humanism, also called Naturalistic Humanism, Scientific Humanism, Ethical Humanism and Democratic Humanism is defined by one of its leading proponents, Corliss Lamont, as "a naturalistic philosophy that rejects all supernaturalism and relies primarily upon reason and science, democracy and human compassion." Modern Humanism has a dual origin, both secular and religious, and these constitute its sub-categories.

Secular Humanism is an outgrowth of 18th century enlightenment rationalism and 19th century freethought. Many secular groups, such as the Council for Democratic and Secular Humanism and the American Rationalist Federation, and many otherwise unaffiliated academic philosophers and scientists, advocate this philosophy.

Religious Humanism emerged out of Ethical Culture, Unitarianism, and Universalism. Today, many Unitarian- Universalist congregations and all Ethical Culture societies describe themselves as humanist in the modern sense.

The most critical irony in dealing with Modern Humanism is the inability of its advocates to agree on whether or not this worldview is religious. Those who see it as philosophy are the Secular Humanists while those who see it as religion are Religious Humanists. This dispute has been going on since the early years of this century when the secular and religious traditions converged and brought Modern Humanism into existence.

Secular and Religious Humanists both share the same worldview and the same basic principles. This is made evident by the fact that both Secular and Religious Humanists were among the signers of Humanist Manifesto I in 1933 and Humanist Manifesto II in 1973. From the standpoint of philosophy alone, there is no difference between the two. It is only in the definition of religion and in the practice of the philosophy that Religious and Secular Humanists effectively disagree.

The definition of religion used by Religious Humanists is a functional one. Religion is that which serves the personal and social needs of a group of people sharing the same philosophical world view.

To serve personal needs, Religious Humanism offers a basis for moral values, an inspiring set of ideals, methods for dealing with life's harsher realities, a rationale for living life joyously, and an overall sense of purpose.

To serve social needs, Humanist religious communities (such as Ethical Culture societies and many Unitarian-Universalist churches) offer a sense of belonging, an institutional setting for the moral education of children, special holidays shared with like-minded people, a unique ceremonial life, the performance of ideologically consistent rites of passage (weddings, child welcomings, coming-of-age celebrations, funerals, and so forth), an opportunity for affirmation of one's philosophy of life, and a historical context for one's ideas.

Religious Humanists maintain that most human beings have personal and social needs that can only be met by religion (taken in the functional sense I just detailed). They do not feel that one should have to make a choice between meeting these needs in a traditional faith context versus not meeting them at all. Individuals who cannot feel at home in traditional religion should be able to find a home in non-traditional religion.


scientology info:

go here for a cool lil flip through animation thingy

http://www.scientology.org/en_US/religion/index.html

[Patrick]

Scientology is a farce religion, invented by L. Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer.

O.K., current stats, 39 votes total, 70% for, 25% against, 5% non-committal.

Patrick

[p0opstlnksal0t]

Scientology is a farce religion, invented by L. Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer.

O.K., current stats, 39 votes total, 70% for, 25% against, 5% non-committal.

Patrick


i am surprised the "yes" votes are going so high... oh well... i kinda want to change my vote now... lol
i think we are turning into liberal pussies... i believe in strict interpretation of the constitution... although, i am atheist... funny mixture huh, an atheist conservative!


lol

fat guy,
out

[Patrick]

Actually the "liberal" interpretation of the Constitution is represented by the ACLU.
Because the votes that agree with the statement that it's gone too far we're actually not turning into liberal pussies, we're just letting the minority liberal's lawyers dictate how the rest of us, the majority, live our lives.

Patrick

[AliceInChains02]

Actually the "liberal" interpretation of the Constitution is represented by the ACLU.
Because the votes that agree with the statement that it's gone too far we're actually not turning into liberal pussies, we're just letting the minority liberal's lawyers dictate how the rest of us, the majority, live our lives.

Patrick

i see, so now this is a battle of the liberal and conservative ideologies. i don't see why liberals are always labelled pussies. they seem to be more rational and thoughtful, IN GENERAL(NOT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM), then conservatives who seem to sit high up on the pedestal and point fingers, but will run out of the press room when they get asked a question they don't like. and as for pleasing the majority, one of the major aspects of democracy is pleasing the majority Without infringing on the rights on the individual. just because the majority wants something doesn't mean it's right. the majority wanted Bush 2 terms in a row( Kind of) and look how many want him now....

[Solracer]

While, I Dont attend church like I should, I do call my self a christian. I was raised in the church, and after my age of accountability, I accepted Christ as my savior. Like Patrick and some Christians, I Dont think The bible, is 100% of what God wanted us to read. I also Believe that somewhere in between Science and the Bible, lies the truth about creation, and other events. I went to school where I said one nation , under god, and I would want my children to go to that same school. Our great contry was built with the Bible as our foundation, and we should stick to what we had back then, Ramius is right, things have gone to hell, in a handbasket imo. Im, not trying to get on someones badside, but if you dont like the way our government is run, go start a life in another country, Im sure you wont like it 100% over there either.

[Patrick]

Whoa, don't misinterpret what I said, I was merely reponding to poop's post.

I myself don't truly believe in "conservative" or "liberal" labels.
While there are true fanatics on both sides of the fence, I tend to believe that most of us are somewhere closer to the middle.
Or to paraphrase Chris Rock; "I'm liberal on some shit and I'm conservative on others"



Patrick

[AliceInChains02]

Whoa, don't misinterpret what I said, I was merely reponding to poop's post.

I myself don't truly believe in "conservative" or "liberal" labels.
While there are true fanatics on both sides of the fence, I tend to believe that most of us are somewhere closer to the middle.
Or to paraphrase Chris Rock; "I'm liberal on some shit and I'm conservative on others"



Patrick

okay, cool, because i really hate arguing over ideologies or political parties, but i do like debating on religion/politics :icon_bigg

[AliceInChains02]

While, I Dont attend church like I should, I do call my self a christian. I was raised in the church, and after my age of accountability, I accepted Christ as my savior. Like Patrick and some Christians, I Dont think The bible, is 100% of what God wanted us to read. I also Believe that somewhere in between Science and the Bible, lies the truth about creation, and other events. I went to school where I said one nation , under god, and I would want my children to go to that same school. Our great contry was built with the Bible as our foundation, and we should stick to what we had back then, Ramius is right, things have gone to hell, in a handbasket imo. Im, not trying to get on someones badside, but if you dont like the way our government is run, go start a life in another country, Im sure you wont like it 100% over there either.

would you rather live in American than Canada? if so, why? and you can't use the obvious excuses like friends/family/work, this is completely hypothetical, like if you could have the exact same life only in Canada, would you rather, or any other country for that matter?

[Solracer]

would you rather live in American than Canada? if so, why? and you can't use the obvious excuses like friends/family/work, this is completely hypothetical, like if you could have the exact same life only in Canada, would you rather, or any other country for that matter?


lol, too cold for me up there, but I do like the lower rx drug prices. Everycontry has its pros and cons.... Im happy enough here to not want to move.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

would you rather live in American than Canada? if so, why? and you can't use the obvious excuses like friends/family/work, this is completely hypothetical, like if you could have the exact same life only in Canada, would you rather, or any other country for that matter?


i guess if i wanted to pay monsterous taxes, and live more like a communist society i would go up there...
maybe when i decide that owning a gun is not important to me, and i wont be able to protect my family, ill move up there!

plus ima freeze my nuts off!


"In spite of the miserable failure of C-68 (Canada's harsh gun control law) to reduce crime, the Canadian Liberal Party is determined to take the next step. On December 8, 2005, Paul Martin (the current Prime Minister, although his government has fallen) is proposing a ban on all handguns as part of their election campaign. This campaign has intensified as a result of a tragic gang-related shooting in Toronto on December 27. "

"Prohibited firearms, devices, and weapons are:

full-automatic firearms
sawed-off rifles or shotguns with barrel length less than 457mm (18 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short barrels
sawed-off rifles or shotguns with overall length less than 660mm (26 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short stocks or short barrels
handguns with a barrel less than 105mm (4.14 inches), except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
handguns in caliber .25 or .32, except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
silencers
large capacity magazines for a semi-automatic center-fire firearm. What constitutes "large capacity" varies; as a general rule, the maximum capacity is 5 rounds for long guns, 10 rounds for handguns "commonly found in Canada", and 5 rounds for handguns "not commonly found in Canada." Magazines for rimfire cartridges, the 8-round clips used in the M1 Garand, and 10 round Lee Enfield rifle magazines are exempted by name from this prohibition.
any of a long list of firearms specifically listed as prohibited. With few exceptions, if it has a remotely military appearance, it is prohibited.
replicas of firearms
any type of Taser or other firearm that discharges a dart or other object carrying an electrical current.
tear gas, Mace or other gas, or any liquid spray, power or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person
any type of stun gun or other electrical charge device of length less than 480mm
a large additional class of prohibited weapons, such as nunchakus, switchblades, brass knuckles, etc. which are not discussed here. Read the list here if you care.
That's right, you're not allowed to use non-lethal means of self-defense in Canada. This would seem to ban pepper spray for use against bears, but apparently there are some forms of bear spray which are legal for use in Canada.

According to the Canada National Firearms Association, "pepper spray is legal if it is intended for use on vicious animals, and is a prohibited weapon if intended for use on vicious humans. On the other hand, if you carry it to protect yourself from vicious animals, and are attacked by a vicious human, it is legal to use it on that vicious human. It doesn't have to make sense, it is government policy."
The complete list of named prohibited fireams, named restricted firearms, prohibited weapons, prohibited devices (including the exemptions for rimfire magazines, M1 Garand clips, and Lee Enfield magazines discussed above), and prohibited ammunition is here; however this list does not include firearms which are prohibited or restricted due to characteristics.

A summary focusing specifically on firearms, including characteristics which would render a firearm prohibited or restricted, is here; this summary also lists the competition handguns which are exempted by name from being prohibited and are instead restricted.

Restricted firearms are:

handguns which are not prohibited, including the competition handguns listed here
semi-automatic centerfire firearms with a barrel length less than 470mm (18.5 inches) which are not prohibited
firearms, which can be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660mm (26 inches) by folding/telescoping/etc., which are not prohibited
any of a list of firearms specifically listed as restricted. The most notable entries are the AR-15 and variants, which stand out as being military-appearance firearms which are not prohibited, and a list of competition handguns which are exempted from being prohibited in spite of their characteristics. A list can be found here.
Non-restricted firearms are:

shotguns and rifles which are not restricted or prohibited
the M1 Garand and Lee Enfield rifles, which otherwise would be prohibited due to their large capacity clip or magazine.
some military-appearance firearms (including some similar to the AR-15) which the bureaucrats haven't found out about yet"

[AliceInChains02]

For 7 years in a row (1994-2000 inclusive) the United Nations voted Canada "the best COUNTRY in the world in which to live".

Canada's homicide rates are really low, and when you consider that about 90% of the people all live along the bottom 10% of the country, making a lot of it urban, they do pretty good with their 1.95 per 100,000 homicide rate. America at least triples this usually.
Communist? c'mon...maybe a tad socialist, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. a bad thing would be paying 5,000$ for a broken arm. Plus, I didn't say only Canada, I said any country. What I really want to know is if you really think America is the best country in the world?

[p0opstlnksal0t]

For 7 years in a row (1994-2000 inclusive) the United Nations voted Canada "the best COUNTRY in the world in which to live".

Canada's homicide rates are really low, and when you consider that about 90% of the people all live along the bottom 10% of the country, making a lot of it urban, they do pretty good with their 1.95 per 100,000 homicide rate. America at least triples this usually.
Communist? c'mon...maybe a tad socialist, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. a bad thing would be paying 5,000$ for a broken arm. Plus, I didn't say only Canada, I said any country. What I really want to know is if you really think America is the best country in the world?


those numbers really seem a tad bit skewed! look at the source! i wouldnt be surprised if its a full blown lie!

screw the u.n.!

[p0opstlnksal0t]

those numbers really seem a tad bit skewed! look at the source! i wouldnt be surprised if its a full blown lie!

screw the u.n.!



lol

just trying to get a rise out of yall....
i dont really feel that way, lol

[dhdrider]

...we're just letting the minority liberal's lawyers dictate how the rest of us, the majority, live our lives...

Well said. I couldn't agree more. The majority needs to be more vocal. If they (including me) just sit quiet, the vocal minority or minorities will continue to be the only voice heard.

[AliceInChains02]

maybe if bush is lucky there will be another terrorist attack and he can get abortion banished and maybe start forcing everyone to pray in school again. keep your fingers crossed, majority.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

maybe we should swap him out with kerry, then we can let north korea become nuclear capable, and maybe give them nuclear technology like clinton.

[Lobo]

wow.......................

wow........

wow.........

I am surprised this even came up in here, and to be honest I have a very strong opinion in this matter and will take the time to voice it.

While the views of most on here coincide with ages, i am older then some and younger then others, just under Patricks age and I really side with your views.

I absolutely HATE what the liberalists have done to this country, and the general populations views.

I have major respect for our founding fathers, and sorry I dont buy into or believe someone in todays society has the right to preach to me on how things should be, hell its worked well enough for us so far, and like my father and his father and so on and so forth it worked just fine for them. All this crying about rights rights..... I am so sick to death of it all.

Let me see,..... its like buying a brand new Bike off the showroom floor, and taking it to Patrick and saying......

"here rebuild the motor please..."

Complete rebuild all new seals and bearings and gaskets etc etc......

Yeah I know there is nothing wrong with it, but still...... I think it will be better.

old addage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" should apply here on how they want to change things and change our country.

Now on to religion.... yeah..heh

the infamous Joel Osteen of the famous lakeside church..... his wife was escorted off a Continental airlines flight here in Houston for her "Snobby, bratty behavior" why a preachers wife being a brat ????? no way.... i mean come on now, you can purchase Season seating tickets for front row seats at that church, you can also buy assigned parking spots there as well... The Brand spanking new St. Edward Catholic church on Spring Stuebner just opened its new facility where it asked parishoners to "donate" for the costs associated with the items inside the church. $50K per stain glass window, 10K for a Holy water sprinkler !!!!!!!!!!

While i have read the Bible cover to cover many times, and believe what i do, I am surely not gonna "BUY" my way into heaven to line someone elses pockets in the meantime. I surely am not gonna go to a church where someone preaches to me "Their" interpretation of the Bible.....

Church is BIG business these days, some people see this and dont like it so they protest by wanting "in God We trust" taken off our money, taking phrases out of our Pledges, so on and so forth..... some people see this is what organizations like Al Queada and extreme middle eastern regimes see as our cornerstones and they are so apt to eradicate, so people are in fear of this, and try to have a more liberalistic view so as not to create waves in others eyes, like those in the middle east in hopes of NOT becoming the next new target, you can hide behind what you think will make others look the other way, you can cower behind your beliefs, but i'll be damned if i am gonna let people influence my life, and ways i have been raised and say its not good enough for my kids.

One night my son had a friend stay the night and they made a joke about sneaking out and going over to a girls house,............. I knew they were joking about it in the manner in which they said it, so I replied, you sneak out i will break my belt across your ass......... his friend made a comment. "man if my parents did that I would call CPS".... dumbfounded by this new mentality i was tempted to say more but refrained. After all i was kidding just as they were, but he was dead serious about the calling of CPS....

Now I maybe old school but I still hold hands and say grace before meals, and prayers at bedtime, but all too often i see in my son's friends they dont even know to bow their head to say grace, let alone what to say, after all its not like they get instruction on how to do it on MTV or in some video game.

it worked well enough for me to be raised on so shall it work for my kids...

"If it ain't broke !!!!!!! don't fix it !"

/rant off

[PORSCHITO]

^^^^ awesome speach i completely endorse it ....

[AliceInChains02]

maybe we should swap him out with kerry, then we can let north korea become nuclear capable, and maybe give them nuclear technology like clinton.

oh, did kerry say he would let north korea build bombs? i must've missed that. either way, i don't think it can get much worse than Bush. i doubt there has ever been a president before that you could actually make several daily calendars, w/ a quote from that president on each day, each showing less and less knowledge of the english language, the world, or anything else. the list could go on for miles about Bush and his wrong doings before he even got into office, as for Kerry, mostly propaganda I think. most people i've asked about kerry couldn't really give me specifics. they would just murmur something about "swiftboat" and "liberal pussy".

[p0opstlnksal0t]

Now I maybe old school but I still hold hands and say grace before meals, and prayers at bedtime, but all too often i see in my son's friends they dont even know to bow their head to say grace, let alone what to say, after all its not like they get instruction on how to do it on MTV or in some video game.



/rant off


this kid needs a good ass whoopin, put that lil bastard in his place!
on another note, who cares if he cant say grace... maybe he's not religious... sounds kinda hypocritical that in the beginning of the paragraph you would never preach to anyone, and hated being preached to, yet you talk about how these kids dont know how to pray n sh!t... so... when i go to family eat-outs n sh!t i dont get all into the groove of the prayer, seeing as im not religious. i just sorta bow my head out of respect to everyone elses beliefs.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

"swiftboat" and "liberal pussy".

sounds about right....

kerry = duesche bag...


n e ways... i dont think im educated enough in the world of politics... so not gonna try to rebuttle strong political views.

i do know that kerry has been caught in the act lying, and being a hypocrit. let me google some sh!t see if i can find it.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

GOOGLED

"In 1991, John Kerry voted against the resolution for the first Gulf War, citing that although he was "for kicking Saddam out of Kuwait" he felt that "we needed a little more time." Time for what? Allowing Saddam to steal more from Kuwait, or to better organize his forces for an invasion of Saudi Arabia? Kerry, to his credit, did vote for the 2002 Iraq resolution, as did all the other Democrats with national aspirations, but his motives must be questioned given the negative political implications associated with being seen as soft on Saddam on both occasions. In addition, when pushed by the anti-war faction for reasoning as to his vote, Kerry weakly offered that he "voted to threaten the use of force to make Saddam comply with U.N. resolutions." Even John Q. Public knew Bush didn't go to Congress to threaten Saddam -- he went to obtain authorization to wage war.

Kerry's waffling on the war issues is just one of his many problems. The Americans for Democratic Action, a left-wing group, rates his lifetime voting record at 93 percent, astounding considering he makes Ted Kennedy, the liberal standard-bearer in the Senate, look conservative at an 88 percent rating. Luckily for Kerry, most Americans won't be able to know his oft liberal positions on many recent issues as Kerry missed 64 percent of the votes, including the historic Medicare and energy votes, in the Senate during the first session of the 108th Congress. The time and energy consumed by a campaign is understandable when evaluating missed votes, but missing a large majority of votes merely demonstrates Kerry's irresponsibility to his office and to the public.

Throughout his campaign, Kerry has made a point to fight against corporate special interests -- odd, considering Kerry is the undisputed champion of special interest dollars. Since 1989, the Center for Responsive Politics reveals Kerry has raised more money from paid lobbyists than any other Senator. In 2001, shortly after voting to outlaw soft money from national parties, Kerry, in an effort to offset the effects of said ban, comically created his own soft money committee called the "Citizen Soldier Fund" to accept unlimited soft money contributions from corporations and labor unions. The committee has taken in more than $1.3 million from businesses like AT&T and insurance giant AIG ("John Forbes Kerry the Hypocrite,"Vol. I, Issue 3," gop.com/RNCResearch, Feb. 6). A politician in bed with special interest isn't a rare occurrence in Washington, but Kerry consistently deceives the public when it comes to his own ties to corporations and PACs.

The biggest skeleton in John Kerry's closet occurred nearly two decades ago: A two-year stint as Massachusetts' Lieutenant Governor under Michael Dukakis -- yes, that Michael Dukakis. While in office, Kerry staunchly defended the Dukakis furlough program that allowed violent offenders weekend prison leaves for good behavior.

A potential Bush vs. Kerry match-up is decidedly intriguing. In 1988, the elder Bush crushed Dukakis; in 2004, there is a strong potential the younger Bush will run against an "even more liberal than Dukakis" Kerry. Democrats can only hope that the classic conservative versus liberal showdown fares better for them this time around.

For the conservatives out there reading this and worrying that Kerry's ultra-liberal, devious, special-interest packed record will remain unknown to the American public, fear not. Soon after Kerry (if he does indeed capture the nomination) becomes the Democrats' anointed one, Republicans will drop a $100 million smart-bomb of political ads and the like on the Kerry campaign in a pre-emptive strike to, as Time magazine says, "define that Democrat before most of the country can pick him out of a lineup." In the meantime, sit back, relax and admire the perfectly-coifed hair and allegedly botox-refined forehead of the next Massachusetts liberal to see his presidential aspirations go down in flames."

[Lobo]

this kid needs a good ass whoopin, put that lil bastard in his place!
on another note, who cares if he cant say grace... maybe he's not religious... sounds kinda hypocritical that in the beginning of the paragraph you would never preach to anyone, and hated being preached to, yet you talk about how these kids dont know how to pray n sh!t... so... when i go to family eat-outs n sh!t i dont get all into the groove of the prayer, seeing as im not religious. i just sorta bow my head out of respect to everyone elses beliefs.



soemtimes it doesnt come across as i mean, but your hitting it right on the head,....... out of respect is what i was getting at, kids look at you like your crazy for bowing your head and saying grace in the first place, where as this used to be common place and now kids and people persecute you for doing it.

I'm NOT preaching to kids that they should bow their heads and say grace, I respect the fact they have a right to chose if they do or dont, but in the same sense these people should respect the fact that i do bow my head and say grace. Its a Respect and consideration issue


Hope that came across clearer

[p0opstlnksal0t]

i think we need to toughen up a little bit... the liberal (pussy) mentality is sweeping our minds.... lol

dont get bent outta shape when someone looks at you funny for bowing your head and praying, on another note, we need to stop bullshitting, and wasting time trying to get the word "god" changed out of pledges n sh!t.... i mean come on... its just a word

[AliceInChains02]

okay, poop. looks to me like a lot of that shit is spun, and this is a no-spin zone! jk, but yeah, a lot of that shit looks pretty petty and also was probably taken out of context in several ways. looks to me like they were scraping the bottom of the barrel there. i could name just as much stuff for bush without even touching google. Also, it's real easy to pick on John Kerry, who has a long voting record. As a Congressmen, you have to vote on shit. This makes it real easy for someone who has never voted on anything in his life to come along and nitpick. I'm sure if Bush was in Congress there would be just as much shit, if not more, to peg him on. Just about every Congressional vote has so much shit going on in the background, it's probably not even about the issue anymore once it gets around to voting, so I wouldn't really stake too much into anything Kerry voted on, especially not something so mediocre as voting against the first resolution for the first gulf war.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

John Kerry's flip-flopping on the Iraq war is well known. His statements on hotly contested social issues have also been all over the place. (Kerry says that that life starts at conception, but he votes consistently in favor of abortion.) On guns, the senator's position is even more confusing.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

GOOGLED


old info:

"Last Tuesday Kerry's campaign claimed: "John Kerry's opponents are worried because he's the first Democratic candidate to support Second Amendment gun rights and to be an avid hunter.... The Republican Party and George Bush's campaign will stop at nothing to mislead voters about John Kerry's record." Campaigning in St. Louis last Thursday, Kerry again claimed, "I support the Second Amendment. I've been a hunter all my life." Earlier this year, Kerry said, "I believe that the Constitution, our laws and our customs protect law-abiding American citizens' right to own firearms." If you believe some of the responses from voters, Kerry's statements and his constant photo-ops with guns have convinced many that he supports gun rights.

Yet, according to those on both sides of the gun debate — the Brady Campaign and the NRA — Kerry has voted for every gun-control bill before the Senate over the last 18 years. He has consistently voted for restrictions, from banning semi-automatic guns to mandating storage rules. He refused to rein in the lawsuits against gun-makers.

Kerry has also voted to ban hunting on federal land and to ban most center-fire rifle ammunition, including the rounds most commonly used by hunters (positions that please the animal-rights groups, with whom he also has a perfect voting record of support)."

[AliceInChains02]

OK, flip flopping then. Bush flip flopped from an Ivy League graduate(how the hell??) to a war-hero, protecting Alabama from the vietcong(wherever he was because he never showed up for duty for approximately a YEAR), to an oil tycoon/alcoholic/drug user, to a reformed Christian just in time to run for president. Then he flip flopped from WMD, to Al-Queda links, to well.. heck, Saddam is just a bad person.

And to think, Kerry was wasting his time in Vietnam getting purple hearts, however minor they may have been, when he could've been getting drunk and screwing sorority girls, because these are the values america truly cherishes.

[AliceInChains02]

Okay, voting again. First off a lot of voting is spun around and around. Lol, and the best they can come up with is he voted for stricter storage rules?? Hunting on federal land...hmmmm...i don't know about that, I mean, isn't that kind of Rational???

[p0opstlnksal0t]

OK, flip flopping then. Bush flip flopped from an Ivy League graduate(how the hell??) to a war-hero, protecting Alabama from the vietcong(wherever he was because he never showed up for duty for approximately a YEAR), to an oil tycoon/alcoholic/drug user, to a reformed Christian just in time to run for president. :gesture: Then he flip flopped from WMD, to Al-Queda links, to well.. heck, Saddam is just a bad person.


:laughing6


are u serious.... that is your rebuttle....

[AliceInChains02]

Here, I googled for about 1 second, here's some stuff Bush voted on.

Bush Administration cuts $1.5 billion from military family housing. The Bush Administration cut $1.5 billion for military family housing, despite Department of Defense statistics showing that in 83,000 barracks and 128,860 family housing units across the country are below standard.

Bush Republicans support millionaires instead of military veterans. Bush allies in Congress stopped efforts to scale back the tax cut for the nation's millionaires by just five percent - a loss of just $4,780 for the year - in order to restore this funding for military family housing.

Bush Administration underfunded veterans' health care by $2 billion. The Bush Administration's 2004 budget underfunded veterans' health care by nearly $2 billion.

Bush Administration proposal would end health care benefits for 173,000 veterans. More than 173,000 veterans across the country would be cut off from health care because of Bush Administration proposed budget cuts and its plan requiring enrollment fees and higher out-of-pocket costs.

Bush Administration opposed plan to give National Guard and Reserve Members access to health insurance. Despite the war efforts of America's National Guard and Reserve Members, the Bush Administration announced in October 2003 its formal opposition to give the 1.2 million Guard and Reserve members the right to buy health care coverage through the Pentagon's health plan. One out of every five Guard members lacks health insurance.

Bush Administration cuts $172 million allotted for educating the children of military personnel.

Bush Administration tax cut denies military families increase in child tax credit.

That's 1 page, and kind of a narrow range, a bit more juicier than storing your guns or center fire rifle rounds I would say

[AliceInChains02]

:laughing6


are u serious.... that is your rebuttle....

rebuttal*

[p0opstlnksal0t]

OK, flip flopping then. Bush flip flopped from an Ivy League graduate(how the hell??) to a war-hero, protecting Alabama from the vietcong(wherever he was because he never showed up for duty for approximately a YEAR), to an oil tycoon/alcoholic/drug user, to a reformed Christian just in time to run for president. Then he flip flopped from WMD, to Al-Queda links, to well.. heck, Saddam is just a bad person.

And to think, Kerry was wasting his time in Vietnam getting purple hearts, however minor they may have been, when he could've been getting drunk and screwing sorority girls, because these are the values america truly cherishes.


where is that written??? proof???

[p0opstlnksal0t]

sry.. didnt see the google stuff


trey

[p0opstlnksal0t]

Here, I googled for about 1 second, here's some stuff Bush voted on.

Bush Administration cuts $1.5 billion from military family housing. The Bush Administration cut $1.5 billion for military family housing, despite Department of Defense statistics showing that in 83,000 barracks and 128,860 family housing units across the country are below standard.

Bush Republicans support millionaires instead of military veterans. Bush allies in Congress stopped efforts to scale back the tax cut for the nation's millionaires by just five percent - a loss of just $4,780 for the year - in order to restore this funding for military family housing.

Bush Administration underfunded veterans' health care by $2 billion. The Bush Administration's 2004 budget underfunded veterans' health care by nearly $2 billion.

Bush Administration proposal would end health care benefits for 173,000 veterans. More than 173,000 veterans across the country would be cut off from health care because of Bush Administration proposed budget cuts and its plan requiring enrollment fees and higher out-of-pocket costs.

Bush Administration opposed plan to give National Guard and Reserve Members access to health insurance. Despite the war efforts of America's National Guard and Reserve Members, the Bush Administration announced in October 2003 its formal opposition to give the 1.2 million Guard and Reserve members the right to buy health care coverage through the Pentagon's health plan. One out of every five Guard members lacks health insurance.

Bush Administration cuts $172 million allotted for educating the children of military personnel.

Bush Administration tax cut denies military families increase in child tax credit.

That's 1 page, and kind of a narrow range, a bit more juicier than storing your guns or center fire rifle rounds I would say

lol i would hate to see some of the stuff on that list if it were kerry!

[AliceInChains02]

where is that written??? proof???

proof of what? there's proof of all of it, the drug use is a bit shady, but it's pretty much well known that he was into drugs. he even partied at Hunter S Thompson's.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

but it's pretty much well known that he was into drugs.


yall (liberals) got all of that, out of this:



I wouldn't answer the marijuana questions. You know why? Because I don't want some little kid doing what I tried

i agree he hinted he tried it...
at least he didnt say some stupid shit like: i tried it, but didnt inhale

On a question about cocaine, Bush said he would reply,
Rather than saying no ... I think it's time for someone to draw the line and look people in the eye and say, you know, 'I'm not going to participate in ugly rumors about me and blame my opponents,' and hold the line. Stand up for a system that will not allow this kind of crap to go on

[p0opstlnksal0t]

never has he ever hinted that he has done or is doing coke

[p0opstlnksal0t]

n e 1 else got anymore rumored sh!t to add?

[Lobo]

All in all ........ why does anyone think its important for the word God be removed from schools, courtrooms, and Historical written documents and currency a priority on any level.....



We have Homeless people, people in MAJOR need of healthcare, local issues and country issues that need to be addressed, close the borders, pull our troops home. Quit sticking our heads up others asses and deal with our own countries issues. ........Not how a word is used........


Sad how people prioritize some things.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

All in all ........ why does anyone think its important for the word God be removed from schools, courtrooms, and Historical written documents and currency a priority on any level.....



We have Homeless people, people in MAJOR need of healthcare, local issues and country issues that need to be addressed, close the borders, pull our troops home. Quit sticking our heads up others asses and deal with our own countries issues. ........Not how a word is used........


Sad how people prioritize some things.


lol dont change the subject now....

patricks original thread has now been *HIJACKED*
by bush/kerry....

im down for bum-fights.... good way for bums to make money.

[AliceInChains02]

lol, he's not going to participate in ugly rumors, probably because he knows that would either mean lying or admitting that he was a fuck up.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

lol, he's not going to participate in ugly rumors, probably because he knows that would either mean lying or admitting that he was a fuck up.


why does he need to sink down to that level? why should he have to defend himself like that against a lil pissant reporter, fuck dat.. he doesnt have to justify shit.... i would have said the same shit.

[AliceInChains02]

why does he need to sink down to that level? why should he have to defend himself like that against a lil pissant reporter, fuck dat.. he doesnt have to justify shit.... i would have said the same shit.

i don't know, maybe as the leader of our country, we are kind of entitled to know what kind of person he is/was....though it may be in the past, it still shows something about him, and the people that like him will still like him and the people that don't will just have 1 more thing of many things to not like him for. you might say that it's not important because it happened a long time ago, but look how much shit you just brought up from Kerry's past.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

all the shit i brought up towards kerry was factual, not hearsay. if the drug rumors were factual, i would most definately hold it against him. but, there not! i dont care how old the shit is... if bush did drugs when he was in college, it doesnt matter, he still did them! but theres no proof! and he never even came close to admitting that he did coccaine.
if kerry was hypocritical, and lied in the past.... it doesnt matter, he still did them.

[AliceInChains02]

all the shit i brought up towards kerry was factual, not hearsay. if the drug rumors were factual, i would most definately hold it against him. but, there not! i dont care how old the shit is... if bush did drugs when he was in college, it doesnt matter, he still did them! but theres no proof! and he never even came close to admitting that he did coccaine.
if kerry was hypocritical, and lied in the past.... it doesnt matter, he still did them.

so you would hold it against him, but it doesn't matter?

According to a new book, three independent sources close to the Bush family report that Governor Bush was arrested in 1972 for cocaine possession, and taken to Harris County Jail, but avoided jail or formal charges through an informal diversion plan involving community service with Project P.U.L.L.

[Patrick]

I go away for a few hours and look where this has gone!

O.K. guys, back on subject please. This is not about Bush or Kerry. I'm not too thrilled with either one to tell the truth.

If you want to look at it politically it's the Supreme Court, with it's somewhat liberal bent, that's doing this. No wonder the politicians are so concerned with who's sworn in next.
Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy; the rule of few over many. It's happening today.

Patrick

[AliceInChains02]

Liberal bent? I've always heard it's even, and now it may go to the right with Bush swearing in 2 Justices. I was watching some of Alito's testimony and he said he wasn't into judicial activism, which is good, but there's no telling how he will be once he's in..

[Patrick]

If you're familiar with the Supreme court justices and their voting records the bench was moderate to liberal.
It will be interesting to see how the latest judges will shape the country over the next 10-15 years.

Patrick

[p0opstlnksal0t]

If you're familiar with the Supreme court justices and their voting records the bench was moderate to liberal.
It will be interesting to see how the latest judges will shape the country over the next 10-15 years.

Patrick


YES!

you gotta remember also... voting for the president also means bringing in all the other good people that come along with him!

[AliceInChains02]

If you're familiar with the Supreme court justices and their voting records the bench was moderate to liberal.
It will be interesting to see how the latest judges will shape the country over the next 10-15 years.

Patrick

no, i don't know all of their voting records, could you give them to me? thanks

[AliceInChains02]

YES!

you gotta remember also... voting for the president also means bringing in all the other good people that come along with him!

or perhaps you could help me out with their voting records, since you seem to agree. thanks.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

i meant "YES" to this: "It will be interesting to see how the latest judges will shape the country over the next 10-15 years."

i dont know shit about the voting records of our bench in supreme court.

google the info my friend... its the easiest.
im not arguing just because i seem conservative, and wanna make a point towards the right wing... i am more moderate than anything. but i do believe bush was the wisest choice out of the 2.

and hes not a lil bitch like kerry... all bureaucratic n shit, trying to kiss ass in the u.n. like clinton' then his wife his over there sucking the president of north korea's dick, and and trying to give them nuclear technology in return for peace.... dumbass bitch i hope she dies

[p0opstlnksal0t]

"On March 9, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Jesse Helms (R-NC), along with Senators Mike DeWine (R-OH) and Bob Smith (R-NH), sent a letter to Bush calling for the administration to abandon the reactor project in favor of "several clean-burning, coal-fired power plants to meet North Korea's civilian energy needs." The letter called into question Pyongyang's "track record" and said that "North Korea's regime hardly can be trusted with [light-water reactor] technology, or with fissile material." "


this was all set up by the clinton administration.
ya, lets trust the north koreans w/ nuclear technology....

[AliceInChains02]

and hes not a lil bitch like kerry... all bureaucratic n shit, trying to kiss ass in the u.n. like clinton' then his wife his over there sucking the president of north korea's dick, and and trying to give them nuclear technology in return for peace.... dumbass bitch i hope she dies

yeah, bush isn't a little bitch. he does what he wants when he wants to. he appoints unqualified buddies to important posts (FEMA) and costs peoples lives in doing so. he rushes into countries on faulty intelligence to settle old scores and make some of his oil tycoon buddies rich and does the oh so horrible kerryesque flip flop all over when trying to justify it (IRAQ).

and what the hell is bush doing about north korea? you criticize clinton for peace talking, well what is bush doing? is he over there kicking ass and taking names? haven't you seen the pictures of Bush holding hands with Prince Abdullah? what do all of the conservatives think of that? i'm surprised they didn't plum choke on deir skoal just tinking o' Bush holin hands with one dem terrorists folk like a lil sissy queer fag boy

[fuknrobert]

DIE THREAD DIE!!

[AliceInChains02]

DIE THREAD DIE!!

at least it's posted in the right section :keke: :keke:

[fuknrobert]

screw your pink smileys

[fuknrobert]

:)