Roger Clemens? Steroid User?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Sooo, I'm sick the this Joe Horn sh!z. Lets talk about this new report implicating Roger Clemens. What are you guys' thoughts on this case? Is it plausible that Roger Clemens used steroids? Evidence to support your case?

Here's some text:


He has won more than
350 games, seven Cy Young Awards, and was the American League Most Valuable Player in
1986. He was named to All-Star teams eleven times.
During the Radomski investigation, federal law enforcement officials identified
Brian McNamee as one of Radomski’s customers and a possible sub-distributor.


McNamee and Clemens became close professionally while in Toronto, but they were not close
socially or personally.


McNamee attended a lunch party that Canseco hosted at his home in Miami. McNamee stated that, during this luncheon, he observed Clemens, Canseco, and another person he did not know meeting inside 169 Canseco’s house, although McNamee did not personally attend that meeting. Canseco told members of my investigative staff that he had numerous conversations with Clemens about the benefits of Deca-Durabolin and Winstrol and how to “cycle” and “stack” steroids.


Toward the end of the road trip which included the Marlins series, or shortly after the Blue Jays returned home to Toronto, Clemens approached McNamee and, for the first time, brought up the subject of using steroids. Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee’s help.

Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which Clemens supplied. McNamee knew the substance was Winstrol because the vials Clemens gave him were so labeled. McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in Clemens’s apartment at the SkyDome. McNamee never asked Clemens where he obtained the steroids.


During the 1998 season (around the time of the injections), Clemens showed
McNamee a white bottle of Anadrol-50.386 Clemens told McNamee he was not using it but wanted to know more about it. McNamee told Clemens not to use it. McNamee said he took the 385 Jose Canseco, Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant ‘Roids, Smash Hits and How Baseball Got Big 211-13 (Regan Books 2005).
386 Anadrol 50 is the brand name for oxymetholone and, according to a reference book targeted at steroid abusers, “is considered by many to be the most powerful steroid commercially available.”

[Gigolo Jason]

I think they are all on the juice.

However, I honestly don't care.

I stopped following baseball along time ago when I refused to pay the huge ticket price and the $10 they charge per beer in the stadium.

[txferrari]

Nope, no way. Its impossible. Inconceivable. Unheard of. Not a chance.

[dbuck]

I couldn't care less, he's a sellout, that's all I need to know....

<----Just a little bitter about his departure....

[txgsxrbob]

Hell yea !!he has his $$$$$ now

[cogs69]

Definetely, go look at the report of that guy claiming he personally gave Clemens the shot and go look at the first two years he won the cy-young award. Coincidence? Then go look at pics of Clemens before then and look how big he got after. Another coincidence? I think that he needs asteriks by all his awards also. I do agree though, I don't care if they use or not, baseball is boring enough, had they not used it, how much boring would the league be? BUT, I think known users should not be in the record books.

[jus10]

I've always suspected he might (not necessarily huge amounts, but a lil' cycle here and there.) But who's to know for sure, he'll never admit it. And it's a scientific fact that baseball players are liars.



Yeah I got nothin' but I'm pretty tired of the "other" debates, so there ya go fella!

[stlal]

They need to treat him the same way they treat Barry....

I say draw the line now and let the past go. Im tired of hearing about it.

[arturo3rd]

i think he used it for performance gain and i belive pettite used HGH for health reasons (if you can call it that). HGH was legal back then but steroids never were.

[cogs69]

I bet Clemens hates Pettite right now. He even came out and said that Clemens used actual Diabolic Steroids, not just HGH. HAHA, I have hated Clemens ever since he held out half a year on us, then went to the Yankees. Good to see him get justice, he deserves all this negative light.

[Guitar Man]

IMO where you see professional sports you will find performance enhancing drugs. It's like the athletes are pressured into using them just to keep up with the other pros. When you have a multi million dollar contract and you have to defend your starting position with all of the new talent that is constantly flowing in I'm sure they start looking for that extra edge.

When a player is drafted/signed they should be tested right then for these substances.

[cogs69]

IMO where you see professional sports you will find performance enhancing drugs. It's like the athletes are pressured into using them just to keep up with the other pros. When you have a multi million dollar contract and you have to defend your starting position with all of the new talent that is constantly flowing in I'm sure they start looking for that extra edge.

When a player is drafted/signed they should be tested right then for these substances.

blah blah blah blah blah, the pressure is so hard......BS if you aren't good enough naturally, then you don't deserve to be there. BTW they have no way of testing for HGH at the moment.

Did you guys hear that Clemens came out and made a statement through his agent? He denies all accusations of using HGH or Steroids. He criticized the media and fans that after all these years of playing that he didn't even get a benefit of the doubt. When Pettite (his boyfriend) came out and publicly announced that Clemens did it, I think that put a nail in the coffin. I wonder if since he is going to try and deny everything, if there won't be an investigation into him?

[trdvet]

He's using, but if he would have just said so then it would have been over and done with. He should stick to doing HEB commercials.

[cogs69]

Anyone listen to the press conference yesterday? I have to say, I was 100% sure Clemens used before it. I couldn't find a reason why Mcnamee could have possibly put his neck on as a lie. He had already said many other players, why would he try to go head to head with an idol with that much money without merit, but after the press conference, I am not as sure about my opinion anymore.

[BoostJunky]

of course he used steriods

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Boy, Brian McNamee sure is gettin beat up in this Congressional hearing...

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3243081&categoryId=3153777

[CarbonJames]

who Efin cares.

[RACER X]

why is congress looking into this, there are illegals to kick out!

[cogs69]

Boy, Brian McNamee sure is gettin beat up in this Congressional hearing...

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3243081&categoryId=3153777

yea he is :eek3:

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

who Efin cares.

why is congress looking into this, there are illegals to kick out!

I hear the both of you but being into sports the way that I am, I AM INTERESTED....

But I do see your point Racer, with all the substantial problems facing the country at this moment, why does this sh!t take precedent in the eyes of Congress?

[Daily Triumph]

why is congress looking into this, there are illegals to kick out!

:rofl::nod:, Clemens did it. I hope the vials and needles McNamee saved are worth something. His restaurant in Memorial City mall is going to tank in the first 3 months (prediction)

[melissa claire]

A lil winny here, a cc of equipoise there..never hurt anybody. :keke:

He is still my favorite pitcher.

[OMEGA]

trued i dont care, but you know what really pisses me off? is how this is ****en goin to a supreme court for ruling? wtf? is this the most important thing for our government to be worrying about? baseball?

[bluewave18]

speakin of which i need to ask clemens where I can find some dbol. Its hard to find right now.

[bluewave18]

whats up melissa what you got?test and tren isnt enough.

[BoostJunky]

I heard Andy Pettitte made some comments about his steriod use. I think Clemens is screwed, just admit it man.....

[bluewave18]

it is too late for that.

[bluewave18]

you have to have $$$$$$$$ contracts to afford hgh.

[melissa claire]

whats up melissa what you got?test and tren isnt enough.

:eek3:

I dont condone the usage of AAS. You must really be a nutso if Tren is not working for ya. :keke:

Step away from the drugs. No good i tell ya.

[cashtown]

Pettitte says that back around 2000 Clemens told him that he'd used HGH. Clemens responds by saying that no, it was his wife who used HGH to prepare for a Sports Illustrated photo shoot and that Pettitte had misunderstood.

Funny stuff.

[navigator]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again here.

I'm so tired of that stuff. Who cares if they took it or not? If I was a pro athlete and the difference between getting a 20 million contract or a 30 million contract was the use of steroids or HGH, it's a no brainer. Bring me the needle!

Todays athletes are the modern day version of gladiators. They go at it for our entertainment. We have to pay outrageous prices for tickets to watch the competition so I want my moneys worth. Give me blood on the field. Show me 600' homeruns. Raise the rim for 12' slam dunks. I want those bastages to be the best they can pharmaceutically be.

And don't give me that crap about kids looking up to them. Which athlete today would you want your kid to choose as his or her hero? Not many to choose from are there? So let 'em take the stuff and entertain.

[melissa claire]

you have to have $$$$$$$$ contracts to afford hgh.

Anybody can get HGH nowadays. Somatrophin can be found anywhere, not to mention all the Chinese HGH floating around. Not too good in the long run. disdented bellies and organ failure are no jokes.

[navigator]

Even after McNamee was fired by the club, even after the rape charges, Rog kept him on they payroll. If Rog is such an upstanding guy, I wonder why he associates himself with such a person.

[navigator]

Anybody can get HGH nowadays. Somatrophin can be found anywhere, not to mention all the Chinese HGH floating around. Not too good in the long run. disdented bellies and organ failure are no jokes.

Well heck I don't need HGH for that. It happens naturally to guys with the coming of old age. Kinda like needing reading glasses.

[bluewave18]

still cost more than any other.
and i thought tren was high at 150 10ml/75mgper cc

[cogs69]

Clemens just got busted for lying. woo hoo, his credibility just went to shit

[melissa claire]

still cost more than any other.
and i thought tren was high at 150 10ml/75mgper cc

The reason for that is because most Tren found today are home brews.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again here.

I'm so tired of that stuff. Who cares if they took it or not? If I was a pro athlete and the difference between getting a 20 million contract or a 30 million contract was the use of steroids or HGH, it's a no brainer. Bring me the needle!

Todays athletes are the modern day version of gladiators. They go at it for our entertainment. We have to pay outrageous prices for tickets to watch the competition so I want my moneys worth. Give me blood on the field. Show me 600' homeruns. Raise the rim for 12' slam dunks. I want those bastages to be the best they can pharmaceutically be.

And don't give me that crap about kids looking up to them. Which athlete today would you want your kid to choose as his or her hero? Not many to choose from are there? So let 'em take the stuff and entertain.

Well you stand on the small end of opinions with that assertion...

By your logic, we should go ahead and manipulate athletes genetically to get the best possible performance out of them. I think the sh!t should be outlawed. The profound thing about athletes and athletics- to me atleast- is that these guys are thought to do incredible things with the gifts they were born with NOT extra-corpus. FCUK DOPING...do it natural or don't do it at all...

[melissa claire]

Well you stand on the small end of opinions with that assertion...

By your logic, we should go ahead and manipulate athletes genetically to get the best possible performance out of them. I think the sh!t should be outlawed. The profound thing about athletes and athletics- to me atleast- is that these guys are thought to do incredible things with the gifts they were born with NOT extra-corpus. FCUK DOPING...do it natural or don't do it at all...

+1

Sadly that is just wishful thinking thesedays

[bluewave18]

boilin down the cow pills. Keep that stuff

[bluewave18]

Too many doing it. Go with the flow. If every other is doing it than 30 % are doing it thats enough to justify the need. If your not at the top,get your shot and get there.

[bluewave18]

i screwed that one up

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

+1

Sadly that is just wishful thinking thesedays

And that is the sad truth...the alternative is to make it as difficult to get away with it as possible. No alarm will stop every burglar, no army will rule supreme forever...we can only hope to take whatever measures necessary to deter the undesirable effect as best we can...

[bluewave18]

you know what i mean?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Too many doing it. Go with the flow. If every other is doing it than 30 % are doing it thats enough to justify the need. If your not at the top,get your shot and get there.

:angry7:

No...no no no...no no












...no

[navigator]

Well you stand on the small end of opinions with that assertion...

By your logic, we should go ahead and manipulate athletes genetically to get the best possible performance out of them. I think the sh!t should be outlawed. The profound thing about athletes and athletics- to me atleast- is that these guys are thought to do incredible things with the gifts they were born with NOT extra-corpus. FCUK DOPING...do it natural or don't do it at all...

Well that is a problem isn't it? But what do you expect when they pay teenager millions of dollars to play a game. Sports used to be about fun but now it's about making money. Take the money away and there goes the incentive to do the drugs.

Why are you so concerned about steroids and HGH when our schools are full of meth, coke, etc., etc., ? We have bigger problems than a handfull of athletes trying to blow up their muscles. Just goes to show where todays priorities lie.

[bluewave18]

well said cajun

[bluewave18]

navigator is on to something

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

well said cajun

Preciate it bruh...:thumb:

[bluewave18]

with all of the "bad" drugs out there I sure cant hate on the juice. I like it too much anyway.

[bluewave18]

i need a contract to go with my habit

[bluewave18]

my fast ball has to be up to at least 40mph by now

[p0opstlnksal0t]

Anybody can get HGH nowadays. Somatrophin can be found anywhere, not to mention all the Chinese HGH floating around. Not too good in the long run. disdented bellies and organ failure are no jokes.

maybe before "raw deal"

only a select few have links to china now... hgh is a fortune now

hgh doesnt cause the organs to grow like most misinformed people think. its lr3 coupled with insulin along with the massive amounts of food intake a professional level bodybuilder must injest.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Well that is a problem isn't it? But what do you expect when they pay teenager millions of dollars to play a game. Sports used to be about fun but now it's about making money. Take the money away and there goes the incentive to do the drugs.

Why are you so concerned about steroids and HGH when our schools are full of meth, coke, etc., etc., ? We have bigger problems than a handfull of athletes trying to blow up their muscles. Just goes to show where todays priorities lie.

Thing is, MOST ARE concerned about meth, coke, etc. The problem is, those items aren't as PUBLIC as would be a Hall of Fame pitcher engaging in the of taking illegal substances. If a child sees that said pitcher thinks it's "ok" to take drugs then that very same child will look to follow suit. People buy $500 shoes because of a name, drugs would be no different bruh...

...all about perception!

[bluewave18]

Im stackin Budlite and Makers Mark

[bluewave18]

rap sell those drugs

[bluewave18]

sports selling juice is no where as bad as far as I can tell

[bluewave18]

this is gettin silly

[bluewave18]

im up to 409 post now though. this makes 410

[navigator]

Thing is, MOST ARE concerned about meth, coke, etc. The problem is, those items aren't as PUBLIC as would be a Hall of Fame pitcher engaging in the of taking illegal substances. If a child sees that said pitcher thinks it's "ok" to take drugs then that very same child will look to follow suit. People buy $500 shoes because of a name, drugs would be no different bruh...

...all about perception!

Once again, screwed up priorities. Our schools are less important than the private life of a basball pitcher.

It's up to us as parents to guide our children. If we want our kids to have similar morals as us we need to make sure they spend more time with us than others. Strangely enough, my son and I watch basketball together and his favorites are exactly the same as mine.

As far as $500 shoes, Forest Gump said it well, "Stupid is as stupid does." My son will never have any of that crap that the athletes endorse, not because I can't afford it, but because I want to teach him the value of money. The special things he does get, he will have "earned" by doing his chores, keeping his grades up, and staying out of trouble.

[bluewave18]

navi is right on the money. keep up with good parenting and kids will be good. I do believe that. Instill good values and kids will have good values . Kids are not gonna go buy juice just because Clemens did.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Once again, screwed up priorities. Our schools are less important than the private life of a basball pitcher.

It's up to us as parents to guide our children. If we want our kids to have similar morals as us we need to make sure they spend more time with us than others. Strangely enough, my son and I watch basketball together and his favorites are exactly the same as mine.

As far as $500 shoes, Forest Gump said it well, "Stupid is as stupid does." My son will never have any of that crap that the athletes endorse, not because I can't afford it, but because I want to teach him the value of money. The special things he does get, he will have "earned" by doing his chores, keeping his grades up, and staying out of trouble.

I think the priorities with regard to the relative actors is a problem, you are just wrong in where you distribute the guilt. The problem with dope in schools IS in fact a problem but it starts at home with parenting and local authorities. Congress and the rest of Government is, and rightfully so, concerned with large scale catalysts'. That is, the roots of problems. The DEA doesn't look for small time dope dealers unless it is rooted in some larger scheme- otherwise, they only bust the big heads. Congress is concerned with Roger because he is a very public figure and his taking of illegal substances has an exponential effect on those that follow him. He is therefore being scrutinized. You're changing the argument a bit from the legitimacy of the use of illegal substances to some overall problem that we have as a nation. All I will say is that there are causes and effects. Major athletes using HGH and other illegal substances is a catalyst to younger athletes doing the same. This is a problem whether you recognize it as one or not...

[melissa claire]

maybe before "raw deal"

only a select few have links to china now... hgh is a fortune now

hgh doesnt cause the organs to grow like most misinformed people think. its lr3 coupled with insulin along with the massive amounts of food intake a professional level bodybuilder must injest.

So tell me this? Is HGH even worth taking without insulin for bodybuilding cough: gay :cough: purposes? NO!!!! T
the massive food injesting has nothing to to with the organ growth. That is all about the bellies. :keke:

I could throw a rock in my gym and hit someone selling Chinese HGH. other AAS might be scarce now but not HGH.

HGH is not the wonder drug it is made out to be.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Anybody notice how the Republican's tend to focus on McNamee and the Democrats tend to focus on Clemens? Sh!ts hilarious...

[cogs69]

Anybody notice how the Republican's tend to focus on McNamee and the Democrats tend to focus on Clemens? Sh!ts hilarious...

:rofl: now that you say it yea.

[navigator]

I think the priorities with regard to the relative actors is a problem, you are just wrong in where you distribute the guilt. The problem with dope in schools IS in fact a problem but it starts at home with parenting and local authorities. Congress and the rest of Government is, and rightfully so, concerned with large scale catalysts'. That is, the roots of problems. The DEA doesn't look for small time dope dealers unless it is rooted in some larger scheme- otherwise, they only bust the big heads. Congress is concerned with Roger because he is a very public figure and his taking of illegal substances has an exponential effect on those that follow him. He is therefore being scrutinized. You're changing the argument a bit from the legitimacy of the use of illegal substances to some overall problem that we have as a nation. All I will say is that there are causes and effects. Major athletes using HGH and other illegal substances is a catalyst to younger athletes doing the same. This is a problem whether you recognize it as one or not...

Oh, I recognize the problems. I also realize that Roger generates public interest and sells newspapers and commercial time on the evening news. As far as Congresses concern that his condoning the use of illegal drugs will lead others to follow. Bunk!!! Public figures are busted for drugs and alcohol all the time. Too often for it to be big news. How about "Brittney Spears" creates a new generation of irresponsible females" by being a bad example? Remember the Dallas Cowboys of a few years ago. How many felons on that team and government didn't get involved. Hell, this is the country that made light of our President doing one of his aids with a cigar. This is nothing more than Sensationalism at it finest! Nobody really gives a $hit whether Roger does steroids or McNamee does Rogers wife. They just need something to get excited about until something new pops up.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

So tell me this? Is HGH even worth taking without insulin for bodybuilding cough: gay :cough: purposes? NO!!!! T
the massive food injesting has nothing to to with the organ growth. That is all about the bellies. :keke:

I could throw a rock in my gym and hit someone selling Chinese HGH. other AAS might be scarce now but not HGH.

HGH is not the wonder drug it is made out to be.

yes hgh definately has many awesome benefits bodybuilding wise even without the use of insulin

hgh has many benifits it doesnt work like standard aas to increase size of a muscle cell, it replicates cells. there is also some recent research with hgh & igf-lr3 on hiv patients and how these compounds react in the patients bodies. hgh has shown no signs that it increases the size of organ tissue. the studies show how lr3 along with older igflr1 increase the size of organ tissues. frankly i dont think anyone can say with a definate answer as we simply just dont know enough.
the reason i brought up the food intake is that some doctors believe the organs swell up when using high levels of insulin couple with the use of lr1 due to many reasons that are just out of my realm of knowledge. but, as of yet there is no proof or studies that show that hgh has any effect on organ tissue, merely hersay at best.

when hgh cost was 1.5/iu it was worth it i think, but once prices have now soared to over 3.50/iu i definately think the rewards are not worth the price.

p.s.
pls pm me the gym u workout at so i can throw a rock at someone in there and score me some blue tops.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Oh, I recognize the problems. I also realize that Roger generates public interest and sells newspapers and commercial time on the evening news. As far as Congresses concern that his condoning the use of illegal drugs will lead others to follow. Bunk!!! Public figures are busted for drugs and alcohol all the time. Too often for it to be big news. How about "Brittney Spears" creates a new generation of irresponsible females" by being a bad example? Remember the Dallas Cowboys of a few years ago. How many felons on that team and government didn't get involved. Hell, this is the country that made light of our President doing one of his aids with a cigar. This is nothing more than Sensationalism at it finest! Nobody really gives a $hit whether Roger does steroids or McNamee does Rogers wife. They just need something to get excited about until something new pops up.

This is your opinion which is might I add, of the minority...:thumb:

[navigator]

This is your opinion which is might I add, of the minority...:thumb:

Are you sure about the minority? I haven't seen a poll. Maybe it's just your opinion.:eek3::eek3::rofl::rofl:

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Are you sure about the minority? I haven't seen a poll. Maybe it's just your opinion.:eek3::eek3::rofl::rofl:

Mebbe...mebbe not, don't care enough to argue, foolishly, about it with you...g'day mate :thumb:

I think ratings (on ESPN and C-SPAN) alone will prove my point on the matter...be sure to be paying attention...:hello: :keke:

[MadseasoN]

Sooo, I'm sick the this Joe Horn sh!z. Lets talk about this new report implicating Roger Clemens. What are you guys' thoughts on this case? Is it plausible that Roger Clemens used steroids? Evidence to support your case?

Here's some text:

Actually I'm sick of the Clemens/steroid topic. I don't really think it's Congress' business. Baseball teams are private enterprises and it's up to the Commission how they want to enforce their rules.

On another note, I think pro-atheletes should be forced to used steroids. If I'm paying $60 to see a baseball game, I want 105mph pitches and 450' homeruns! :thumb::D

[navigator]

Mebbe...mebbe not, don't care enough to argue, foolishly, about it with you...g'day mate :thumb:

I think ratings (on ESPN and C-SPAN) alone will prove my point on the matter...be sure to be paying attention...:hello: :keke:

The ratings will prove my point on sensationalism.

Were you arguing? I wasn't. I enjoy a good debate. Even about a topic as foolish as this. It was fun. Maybe we will meet again on a more creditable subject.:nod::nod::thumb:

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Actually I'm sick of the Clemens/steroid topic. I don't really think it's Congress' business. Baseball teams are private enterprises and it's up to the Commission how they want to enforce their rules.

On another note, I think pro-athletes should be forced to used steroids. If I'm paying $60 to see a baseball game, I want 105mph pitches and 450' homeruns! :thumb::D

I agree that Congress could be better using their time- considering all the problems facing the country today, but categorically disagree with condoning or even influencing the use of steroids by athletes. That's bull! The sh!t is not healthy and has no place in sports IMO. Each his own but those are some selfish ass reasons to want to endorse the use of steroids. Whatever happened to watching a game for what it was, a game?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

The ratings will prove my point on sensationalism.

Were you arguing? I wasn't. I enjoy a good debate. Even about a topic as foolish as this. It was fun. Maybe we will meet again on a more creditable subject.:nod::nod::thumb:

That's just the thing, I elected to discontinue the process of debate-before reaching to the point of arguing- because there's something lacking within our discussion. We disagree on a fundamental level so it's almost pointless. Believe as you will. Someone will eventually be proven to have been right...:thumb:

As far as the first point. NO, you said flatly:

...Nobody really gives a $hit whether Roger does steroids or McNamee does Rogers wife. They just need something to get excited about until something new pops up.

If people are watching, I would assume the aforementioned could be perceived as false...:thumb:

[navigator]

Whatever happened to watching a game for what it was, a game?

Whatever happened to playing for the enjoyment of the sport?

Someone came along and figured out how to charge admission. Then the players wanted a cut of the gate. Then the sponsors wanted to make their advertising money back. Then the players wanted a cut of the advertising money. Then television got involved. The players wanted a cut of that too.

See where I'm going? Money ruined the sport. Just like it does everything else. Maybe I should say GREED rather than money.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Whatever happened to playing for the enjoyment of the sport?

Someone came along and figured out how to charge admission. Then the players wanted a cut of the gate. Then the sponsors wanted to make their advertising money back. Then the players wanted a cut of the advertising money. Then television got involved. The players wanted a cut of that too.

See where I'm going? Money ruined the sport. Just like it does everything else. Maybe I should say GREED rather than money.

So we are blaming capitalism now? Are you serious? Profit and personal gain has ALWAYS been a part of ANY athletic endeavor! Roman slaves fought for freedom and Romans came by the thousands to experience the sights and sounds of the Coliseum. Someone got rich didn't they. This is nothing new. Your argument is flawed in that you are blaming a natural process of life for bad decisions made by individuals.

Let's step away from the thought of whether or not steroids are bad and lets speak within the scope of it's legality at this present time and any period before with regard to the actors involved. If you break the rules or the law, you are wrong! Simple. IF in fact Roger broke the rules established by the body of the baseball commission by using illegal substances, he is wrong and should be scrutinized. Simple. Kool!? Great! :thumb:

[MadseasoN]

I agree that Congress could be better using their time- considering all the problems facing the country today, but categorically disagree with condoning or even influencing the use of steroids by athletes. That's bull! The sh!t is not healthy and has no place in sports IMO. Each his own but those are some selfish ass reasons to want to endorse the use of steroids. Whatever happened to watching a game for what it was, a game?

$60 per seat and $8 beers are selfish.

If Congress is so worried about the negative image that Clemens is (allegedly) giving baseball and the effects that it could have on young players then they shouldn't publicize it so much. Let MLB deal with it in private - much like any other business would handle problems with an employee.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

$60 per seat and $8 beers are selfish.

If Congress is so worried about the negative image that Clemens is (allegedly) giving baseball and the effects that it could have on young players then they shouldn't publicize it so much. Let MLB deal with it in private - much like any other business would handle problems with an employee.

OBVIOUSLY the MLB has had time to address the issue and they haven't, hence, what we are seeing today. Congress isn't publicizing it...the media is. If you have a problem with the price of tickets and beer, boycott. It's the American way...:thumb:

[MadseasoN]

OBVIOUSLY the MLB has had time to address the issue and they haven't, hence, what we are seeing today. If you have a problem with the price of tickets and beer, boycott. It's the American way...:thumb:

Still no business of anyone outside of MLB.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Still no business of anyone outside of MLB.

Then what is the purpose of a Congressional Sports Committee if not to step in in lue of sufficient operation by a sports entity such as the MLB?

[MadseasoN]

Then what is the purpose of a Congressional Sports Committee?

I could put together a committee on gum chewing, that doesn't mean that it's justified.

I could select some of my friends for the committee though. A nice side job for $30k-$40K per year.

[cogs69]

Still no business of anyone outside of MLB.

So if they were using crack, marijuana, cocaine, heroine, x it only matters to the MLB? Aren't steroids considered as drugs? Doesn't that make him a drug user? I think your view on this is one of the reasons that athletes think they are above the law. Ok yea, get past that, he lied under oath. THAT is the problem. Do you see Pettite in trouble anymore? He owned up, didn't lie UNDER OATH.

Back to the DRUGS, I'm sorry I don't want my kids growing up thinking it is OK to use DRUGS to compete. I don't want them idolizing guys like that. Sorry.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

I could put together a committee on gum chewing, that doesn't mean that it's justified.

I could select some of my friends for the committee though. A nice side job for $30k-$40K per year.

:sleepy3:

So are you saying that the aforementioned committee should be disassembled? If so, we disagree on a fundamental level and I'll discontinue the conversation...we'll just have to agree to disagree because that's whole other discussion...

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

So if they were using crack, marijuana, cocaine, heroine, x it only matters to the MLB? Aren't steroids considered as drugs? Doesn't that make him a drug user? I think your view on this is one of the reasons that athletes think they are above the law. Ok yea, get past that, he lied under oath. THAT is the problem. Do you see Pettite in trouble anymore? He owned up, didn't lie UNDER OATH.

Back to the DRUGS, I'm sorry I don't want my kids growing up thinking it is OK to use DRUGS to compete. I don't want them idolizing guys like that. Sorry.

:banghead: GAWD-FUGGIN-BLESS'ED...EXACTLY...it's really mind numbing dude...seriously!

Let's step away from the thought of whether or not steroids are bad and lets speak within the scope of it's legality at this present time and any period before with regard to the actors involved. If you break the rules or the law, you are wrong! Simple. IF in fact Roger broke the rules established by the body of the baseball commission by using illegal substances, he is wrong and should be scrutinized. Simple. Kool!? Great! :thumb:

[MadseasoN]

So if they were using crack, marijuana, cocaine, heroine, x it only matters to the MLB? Aren't steroids considered as drugs? Doesn't that make him a drug user? I think your view on this is one of the reasons that athletes think they are above the law. Ok yea, get past that, he lied under oath. THAT is the problem. Do you see Pettite in trouble anymore? He owned up, didn't lie UNDER OATH.

Back to the DRUGS, I'm sorry I don't want my kids growing up thinking it is OK to use DRUGS to compete. I don't want them idolizing guys like that. Sorry.

Well, yeah. It's up to MLB (his employer) to enforce the rules that they have in place, nobody else. Steroids are considered drugs. Ritalin is also a drug. I think both are bad but it's not my business who's talking it.

Maybe he did lie under oath. He was stupid for testifying in the first place. I would've stuck to the argument I made above.

Why would they think it's ok to use drugs to compete? Just because someone else (a MLB baseball player) is doing it?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Why would they think it's ok to use drugs to compete? Just because someone else (a MLB baseball player) is doing it?

Works wonders for advertising! You should see the overall sales of Jordan's over the years...:thumb:...if Pro athletes DIDN'T influence the actions of people (youth in particular) why would athletes make millions off of endorsements?

[MadseasoN]

:sleepy3:

So are you saying that the aforementioned committee should be disassembled? If so, we disagree on a fundamental level and I'll discontinue the conversation...we'll just have to agree to disagree because that's whole other discussion...

It's a waste of government time and money.

The hearings were conducted under the Committee on Oversight and Government reform. The same committee that conducted hearings on Government waste. Ironic if you ask me.

[MadseasoN]

Works wonders for advertising! You should see the overall sales of Jordan's over the years...:thumb:...if Pro athletes DIDN'T influence the actions of people (youth in particular) why would athletes make millions off of endorsements?

Maybe we should teach our kids different. Jordans aren't going to be any better for your jump shot than Reboks.

Still doesn't justify government intervention.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

It's a waste of government time and money.

The hearings were conducted under the Committee on Oversight and Government reform. The same committee that conducted hearings on Government waste. Ironic if you ask me.

Someone lied to the Federal Government, they are simply seeking the perpetrator...they typically do...

[MadseasoN]

Someone lied to the Federal Government, they are simply seeking the perpetrator...they typically do...

Dude, that's BS and you know it.

You're a smart guy. You know that the whole thing is a charade. EVERYONE loves publicity - Even committee members. The a-holes even had the nerve to ask for Clemens' autograph before the sessions.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

this is no doubt a massive waste of time and energy. let the fukn police deal with the drug use, and investigation if its such a big deal. this has no business being handled the way it is. yes steroids are an illegal drug, so arrest him and charge him with a crime. otherwise, drop the big circus parade... our govt has more important sh1t to deal with.

[navigator]

our govt has more important sh1t to deal with.


Obviously, they don't.

[navigator]

[QUOTE=CaJuNsOuLjA;1016388]So we are blaming capitalism now? Are you serious?QUOTE]

There is a difference between capitolism and greed. Since you like to bring our wonderful, omnipitent government into everything, there are rules dictating moneymaking endeavors, hence the laws concerning monopolies.

I wonder if anyone has ever looked into how they would relate to the sports market?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Dude, that's BS and you know it.

You're a smart guy. You know that the whole thing is a charade. EVERYONE loves publicity - Even committee members. The a-holes even had the nerve to ask for Clemens' autograph before the sessions.

No I just think it is a dual truth. Some Congressmen want the publicity while others IMO genuinely want to cease activities unbecoming of American athletes...but I will concede that the government has far more important sh!t to worry about at this present moment in time. That, however, does not take away from the importance of discontinuing the use of illegal substances in sports.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

[QUOTE=CaJuNsOuLjA;1016388]So we are blaming capitalism now? Are you serious?QUOTE]

There is a difference between capitolism and greed. Since you like to bring our wonderful, omnipitent government into everything, there are rules dictating moneymaking endeavors, hence the laws concerning monopolies.

I wonder if anyone has ever looked into how they would relate to the sports market?

So what exactly are you getting at with the latter part of this entry?

[navigator]

I'm not sure at the moment. I was sorta thinking out loud. Let me do a little research and see what turns up. If it's interesting I'll get back to ya.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

I'm not sure at the moment. I was sorta thinking out loud. Let me do a little research and see what turns up. If it's interesting I'll get back to ya.

Bet that...

[MACK]

he did it just like o.j.!!!

[cogs69]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/02/14/clemens.pardon.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) --

One of Brian McNamee's lawyers predicted that if Roger Clemens is convicted in connection with the baseball steroids scandal, he'd be pardoned by President Bush. Lawyer Richard Emery also said some Republicans treated his client harshly because of the pitcher's friendship with the Bush family.

Emery made the claims Thursday, a day after a congressional hearing broke down along party lines. Many Democrats were skeptical of Clemens' denials he used performance-enhancing drugs and Republicans questioned the character of McNamee, the personal trainer who made the accusations against the seven-time Cy Young Award winner.

"It would be the easiest thing in the world for George W. Bush, given the corrupt proclivities of his administration, to say Roger Clemens is an American hero, Roger Clemens helped children," Emery said in a telephone interview. "It's my belief they have some reason to believe they can get a pardon."

During Wednesday's session before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Clemens repeated his denials under oath, which could lead to criminal charges if federal prosecutors conclude he made false statements or obstructed Congress.

"I'm not aware of Mr. Clemens having been charged with anything," White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto said after being told of Emery's remarks.

Emery cited Bush's decision last year to commute the 21/2-year prison sentence of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, his vice president's former top aide. Libby was convicted in the case of the leaked identity of a CIA operative.

During the hearing, Clemens cited his friendship with Bush's father, President George H.W. Bush, a baseball fan who regularly attends Houston Astros' games. Clemens said he was on a recent hunting trip when the elder Bush called with words of support.

"When all this happened, the former president of the United States found me in a deer blind in south Texas and expressed his concerns that this was unbelievable, and stay strong and hold your head up high," Clemens testified.

Emery said as he thought about the testimony overnight, Clemens' reference to the call from the elder Bush convinced him the questioning by Republicans was a concerted effort.

"All the pieces fell into place given his friendship, his personal friendship with the Bush family," Emery said. "They have some belief that even if he's prosecuted, he will never have to serve jail time or face a trail. This is a charade we're going through."

IRS Special Agent Jeff Novitzky attended the hearing and watched from the second row. Novitzky has been a part of the BALCO prosecution team that secured an indictment against Barry Bonds on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. Bonds testified before a grand jury in 2003 and denied that he knowingly used performance-enhancing drugs.

Emery praised Clemens' lawyers, Rusty Hardin and Lanny Breuer, as knowledgeable and said the prospect of a pardon was the only explanation that allowed the pitcher to repeat his denials under oath.

"It's the only reason lawyers worth their salt would allow their client to run into the buzzsaw of Jeff Novitzky and the potential prosecution, tampering and lying to a federal official," Emery said.

Joe Householder, Clemens' spokesman, said he would attempt to reach Hardin or Breuer for comment. Republicans on the committee did not immediately return telephone calls.

Emery had harsh criticism for Republican Reps. Dan Burton of Indiana, Virginia Foxx of North Carolina, Darrell Issa of California and Christopher Shays of Connecticut. Shays called McNamee a "drug dealer" and Burton accused McNamee of telling "lie after lie after lie after lie."

"It was disgusting and despicable behavior," Emery said. "It was clear to me they were carrying someone's water."

Rep. Elijah Cummings, a Maryland Democrat who said he believed McNamee, was concerned about the apparent Republican-Democratic divide.

"Of all the things to become partisan over, this was the wrong one," Cummings said. "What we needed to be doing was to be in search of truth. And I think that when you are truly in search of truth, we need to put the partisan shoes at the door and walk in without them."

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/02/14/clemens.pardon.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) --

One of Brian McNamee's lawyers predicted that if Roger Clemens is convicted in connection with the baseball steroids scandal, he'd be pardoned by President Bush. Lawyer Richard Emery also said some Republicans treated his client harshly because of the pitcher's friendship with the Bush family...

Yeah they were talking about that on ESPN radio the other day. Not sure how I feel about this one. While I think steroids are unhealthy and damaging to the image of athletes in general, it'd be hard for me to think Roger should go to jail for it. I understand he would specifically be going to jail for having lied to a Federal Grand Jury but that would only be at face level, it would essentially have been rooted in his use of the illegal substance-which I think is wrong because I think such use was prevalent and it would be wrong to focus solely on Roger. Gonna be interesting...

[cogs69]

Yeah they were talking about that on ESPN radio the other day. Not sure how I feel about this one. While I think steroids are unhealthy and damaging to the image of athletes in general, it'd be hard for me to think Roger should go to jail for it. I understand he would specifically be going to jail for having lied to a Federal Grand Jury but that would only be at face level, it would essentially have been rooted in his use of the illegal substance-which I think is wrong because I think such use was prevalent and it would be wrong to focus solely on Roger. Gonna be interesting...

I think the big problem is he may get pardoned for lieing under oath too. :/: Thats the part i don't like. Yea, it would be dumb to think he would go to jail for use considering everyone that owned up to it aren't going to jail. But if he gets a pardon, and Bonds gets convicted. Can you imagine the racial uproar? White redneck president pardons white redneck athlete while a black athlete gets full charges brought down on him? :eek3:

Surely Bush isn't going to leave presidency with THAT on his name too? :/:

Sorry, I'm still thinking Bush wasn't a total failure as a president, kinda 50/50 on him, but this here just might tip the scales.

[cogs69]

I know everyone is tired of the topic, but I stumbled across this today and thought I would share it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/02/22/clemens.party/index.html

[txferrari]

Manufactered picture I gaurantee it.

[cogs69]

Manufactered picture I gaurantee it.

Dunno, Clemens and his lawyers would not release his Nanny's contact info before the deposition. They finally tracked her down and she placed him at the party also. Why would Clemens not release her info, and they haven't talked in 10 years. :dontknow: If it is manufactured, that kid is in deep doo doo.

[issanni]

hgh

[txferrari]

Dunno, Clemens and his lawyers would not release his Nanny's contact info before the deposition. They finally tracked her down and she placed him at the party also. Why would Clemens not release her info, and they haven't talked in 10 years. :dontknow: If it is manufactured, that kid is in deep doo doo.

Just watch...txferrari knows all!!!!!!!

Will come up later that some kid photoshoped or did something to a picture. Its pretty easy actually if you are really good on a computer. Shoot, I bet Azylum can make a picture if he really wanted to.

[bumblebee]

I haven't read this whole thread so let me jump in the middle and talk about things I don't know about...


If ANY of the sports organizations really care about all this, and they don't, then why don't they just start testing all the athletes all the time.
I know there are ways around testing but at least it's a start in trying to slow it down.
Every pro athlete is probably using something he/she shouldn't be to get that edge, to heal faster from injury or to pitch those last 2 innings.
Highschool, college and pros should ALL be tested ALL the time. The penalties should be severe and most importantly the CULTURE should be that it is a disgrace and a shameful thing to cheat by using performance enhancing drugs.

[txferrari]

bump