TRUE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS ON PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

[paniro187]

FROM WIKIPEDIA

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry.



sounds to me like pledging allegiance to your country is a form of idolatry. Yet the "true christian" right do it.

what about the push to idolize soldiers. saying children to look up to them and this and that. having parades in honor of soliders and all that..............idolizing them.................



WHAT SAY YOU???

[ScooterTrash]

I say your crazy
nothing wrong with supporting soldiers, nothing wrong with patriotism, sad world we live in when supporting your country and its people is veiwed as wrong.

[Gigolo Jason]

Do you pray to the American flag on a regular basis?

Do you ask it to help you,

To comfort you,

To get you thought times of trouble,

Oh wait, I guess the Democrat party (i.e. Hillary Clinton and her minions that follow her like sheep) does all of this when they expect government handouts and free government paid for health care for all.

[paniro187]

LOL at people reading the definition of idolatry and still can't understand the meaning.

[paniro187]

Do you pray to the American flag on a regular basis?

Do you ask it to help you,

To comfort you,

To get you thought times of trouble,

Oh wait, I guess the Democrat party (i.e. Hillary Clinton and her minions that follow her like sheep) does all of this when they expect government handouts and free government paid for health care for all.this has nothing to do with what you just wrote.

[paniro187]

ritual of attachment (pledge of allegiance) to ones nation is idolatry.

shame when you put the FACT (DEFINITION OF IDOLATRY) not opinion in front of someones face and their traditions and TRUE allegiance (to their nation and not god) cloud and stand in the way of what they claim to be.

[cogs69]

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." (RSV Exodus 20:3-6).

This is the verse you refer to. In the way you explain YOUR version of idolatry, we would be wrong in the way we look at pastors or ministers. This is one of the reasons when I picked my denomination I didn't pick Catholic. I veiw praying to the Virgin Mary to conflict with this. As Catholics view this as their channel to talk to god himself through her (as it was explained to me). But if you look further, it has a lot to do with [B]worshiping[B] stuff other than god.

1 Peter 2:13-17: “13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as
supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who
do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men 16 as free,
yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God.
Honor the king.”

If you need I can get you another passage that explains that the King, ruler, or emporer of the land (the president) and his commanding officers are all officers of the land and should all be honored by us. I think since you are trying so hard to find fault in our belief in god, you mistake idolizing for honoring. I can't say I have EVER idolized a soldier, but definetely hold them in high regard as in honoring them. The pledge of allegiance shows our commitment to our contry as God himself (according to the bible) has asked us to do. As the bible states that all the officers (christian or not) were ultimately placed in office by his hand, and his will. The Pledge of Allegiance is one of the ways we honor our government, and show our commitment and devotion to the men God placed before us to rule our land.

[cogs69]

Hey for you guys that want to constantly find everything wrong with Christianity, and want to point out every single possible flaw, it would probably be better for you to study the bible, and have an educated defense or argument than to sit here and cite things that you HEARD someone else say. It would be like me trying to debate over scientology which is something I know absolutely nothing about other than what the media has said. I am no expert on Christianity, I studied all the different religions and Christian denominations back when I was 13 in confirmation. I haven't kept up with my studies since then like I should, but it isn't all that hard to take the time and research a little.

[Gigolo Jason]

this has nothing to do with what you just wrote.

Wrong again.

It has everything to do with nationalism and the Idolatry of government handouts. Read your first post.

Socialism wil be the new religon of the democratic party when Hillary gets the nomination.

[NorthHoustonGSXR]

right on Cogs69....there will always be naysayers as the bible says

[Dub]

Isn't Wikipedia like the online version of National Enquirer??????

[Moody]

Worship and Honoring are two different things.

[MadseasoN]

FROM WIKIPEDIA

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry.



sounds to me like pledging allegiance to your country is a form of idolatry. Yet the "true christian" right do it.

what about the push to idolize soldiers. saying children to look up to them and this and that. having parades in honor of soliders and all that..............idolizing them.................



WHAT SAY YOU???

The Pledge is a promise to do the duty which you owe to your country. It's not necessarily worshipping. I think that the Bible and other Religions define 'worship' in the context of worshipping a God or an object as a God. Therefore honoring a soldier or your parents (which is a Commandment) is not worshipping IMO.

And on the subject of the Pledge, there's much debate about using the word 'God' in the pledge due to seperation of State/Religion issues. Most people in this country are religious therefore it is in fact a nation 'under God'. That doesn't mean that when you say the Pledge you're admitting belief in God.

[paniro187]

give me a bit to get off work and I'll retort.

[Mr. Unassailable]

so lets kill the ass hats that made barney....



alittle piece of one of my favorite movies....


BARTLEBY

(sighs; circling the table)

Mooby, the Golden Calf. Created by Nancy Goidruff -a former kindergarten
teacher - in nineteen eighty nine to fill a gap in the Saturday morning
schedule on local network K-REL Bought by the Complex Corporation in
nineteen ninety one and broadcast nationally as the 'The Mooby Fun-Time
Hour', it picked up a large following of children, ages three to eight, and
spawns sixteen records, two theatrical films, eight prime-time specials, a
library of priced-to-own video cassettes, and bicoastal theme parks dubbed
'MoobyWorld'.

(beat)

Did I miss anything?

Whitland and company stare for a beat.

WHITLAND

You forgot 'Mooby Magazine'. Is there a point to this?

BARTLEBY

(grimly)

You and your board are idolators.

Whitland and company stare dumbfounded. Loki finishes carving and stands
beside Bartleby.

LOKI

(to Bartleby)

How could your forget the magazine?

Bartleby rolls his eyes. Loki turns to the Whitland and holds up the
sculpture.

LOKI

It's you.

(sets sculpture on table)

Do you know much about voo-doo? Fascinating practice, very close to
Satanism, but not really much of a religion - no doctrine of faith. Just an
arrangements of superstitions, the most well- known of which is the voo-doo
doll.

(sneezes; waits; continues)

A mock-up of an individual is subjected to various pokes and prods, and the
desired result is that the individual will feel the effects.

WHITLAND

(to nearest board member)

Call security - now.

Loki throws the knife at the table, severing the phone cord.

LOKI

All lines are currently down.

BARTLEBY

(to Whitland)

Again -. I apologize for my friend's...

LOKI

(frustrated)

Would you just get on with it?!

BARTLEBY

(miffed; to Whitland)

You are responsible for raising an icon that draws worship from the Lord.
You've broken the first commandment, but more than that, I'm afraid none of
you passes for a decent human being. Your continued existence is a mockery
of morality.

(looks to Loki; Loki nods)

Like you - Mister Bernard.

(stands behind board member)

Last year you cheated on your wife of seventeen years, eight times - twice
with prostitutes. You even had sex with her best friend while she was at
her garden club meeting and you were supposed to be watching your kids.

LOKI

In the bed you and your wife share, no less.

The board member stares in disbelief. Loki nods to Bartleby and he moves
on.

BARTLBY

And you, Mister Newman.

Loki sifts through compact discs. He pulls out one entitled 'Mooby Mania'
and pops it into a player. A simple children's song echoes through the
room.

BARTLEBY

You got your girlfriend drunk at last year's Christmas party, and then paid
a kid from the mailroom to have sex with her while she was passed out, just
so you could break up with her - guilt free - when she sobbingly confessed
the next morning that she cheated on you. She killed herself three months
later. You sent flowers to her wake.

The board member's face is frozen. Bartleby shakes his head and moves
quickly around the table.

BARTLEBY

(not liking his job)

Mister Pereira disowned his gay son; Mister Turran put his mother in a
third-rate nursing home and used the profits from the sale of her house to
purchase an oriental rug for himself; Mister Barker flew to the Phillipines
on the company account to have sex with an eleven year old boy; Mister
Bloom okayed the production of Mooby dolls from what he knew were unsafe
and toxic materials because it was less costly.

Bartleby stops at the female Board member and looks at her, relieved.

BARTLEBY

You, on the other hand, are an innocent. You lead a good life and have
never misused your power here.

She stares at Bartleby. Loki pats her on the back and urges Bartleby on.

BARTLEBY

But you, Mister Whitland. You have more skeletons in your closet than this
assembled party. I can't even mention them aloud.

Bartleby leans over and whispers something unheard into Whitland's ear.
Whitland goes green. Bartleby steps back. Loki stands beside Whitland.

LOKI

You're her father, you sick ****.

Whitland begins sobbing.

BARTLEBY

(to Loki)

Can I go now?

LOKI

(cheerily rubbing his head)

Go on, you crazy kid.

Bartlebv exits. Loki turns menacingly on the others.

LOKI

With the exception of Miss Pryce, there is not a decent human being amongst
you. Do you know what makes a human being decent?

(beat)

Fear. And therein lies the problem. None of you has anything to fear
anymore. You rest comfortably in seats of inscrutable power, hiding behind
your false idol, far from judgement - lives shrouded in secrecy even from
one another. But not from God.

Loki goes to exit but pauses. He turns around.

LOKI

I forgot my little voo-doo doll.

(looks at Whitland)

Wow. It really does look just like you. Maybe, if I believed enough...

Loki begins moaning menacingly, slowly waving an open palm over the figure.
Whitland looks at it horrified, then at Loki, then back at the figure. He
sweats and shifts in his seat - eyes pinned on the figure. Loki lets out a
shriek and smashes the figure with his fist. Whitland freezes, eyes closed.
Slowly, he opens his eyes - unharmed.

LOKI

I don't believe in voo-doo.

Loki swiftly exits. The Board Members sit in awed silence. Then the doors
burst open and Loki storms back in.

LOKI

But I do believe in this.

Gun blazing, he takes out the male board members, including Whitland, in a
flurry of bullets. The remaining female Board Member covers her head with
her arms. Loki hangs his arm at his side and touches her hair.

LOKI

(smiling)

It's okay. You've done nothing wrong. They were bad men. You are a pure
soul.

She looks at him, terrified. He smiles back. Then his expression hardens.

LOKI

But you didn't say 'God Bless You' when I sneezed.

He quickly puts the gun to her head. She slams her eyes shut.

[ArturoC]

"You shall have no other gods before me. "


Who voted for this one over the others?

[paniro187]

ponder these spriptures and tell me if yoiu're participating in politics and man made goverment yoiu'r enot part of the world.

Jas. 4:4



Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15

15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him;

John 15:19,

If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU

17:16

They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

taking part in things like loving of ones nation is taking love of thing of the world. pledging allegiance to a flag is loving things of the world.

I'll tie these in further when i'm home from work. :D

and cogs i'm not trying to sway anyone faith.

[ArturoC]

And on the subject of the Pledge, there's much debate about using the word 'God' in the pledge due to seperation of State/Religion issues. Most people in this country are religious therefore it is in fact a nation 'under God'. That doesn't mean that when you say the Pledge you're admitting belief in God.


The words 'under god' were added 50 years after the pledge was written. IMO, the addition of those words were to impose the requirement of a belief in a christian god for Americans.

I call :bs: It is unconstitutional.

The constitution makes makes mention a generic 'creator' which is not specific to any religion, not does it even imply a supernatural deity or god.

Darwinism/evolution says we evolved naturally through a process over time. We could say that we were created by nature, but I'm not going to add 'under nature', or 'under science' to any pledge. It sounds just as stupid as adding 'under god'.

[cogs69]

Who voted for this one over the others?

haha, I don't think he gave us a choice. I don't remember anything in the bible about voting our god, lol. Good one though.

[cogs69]

ponder these spriptures and tell me if yoiu're participating in politics and man made goverment yoiu'r enot part of the world.

Jas. 4:4



Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.

b. Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? James recognizes that we cannot both be friends of this world system in rebellion against God, and friends of God at the same time (Matthew 6:24). Even the desire to be a friend (wants to be a friend) of the world makes one an enemy of God.

So that would mean that being Arturo's friend would make me an enemy of god. At the same time, God is forgiving. There are many sins and things we can do wrong that we can find forgiveness for in him. Its not a way out for all, it is just sometimes you can't avoid all situations and he understands that as long as we look to him to forgive us.

1 John 2:15

15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him;
John 15:19,

If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU

17:16

They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

taking part in things like loving of ones nation is taking love of thing of the world. pledging allegiance to a flag is loving things of the world.

I'll tie these in further when i'm home from work. :D

and cogs i'm not trying to sway anyone faith.

But you and Arturo both, are trying to point out every possible way we could be sinners, or not following our Christian beliefs to a T. It is like you are judging us, which we are all guilty of at times, there is only one that is right in doing that. God himself. There is no point in making posts like this to attack Christians. Thats the way it comes across.

[cogs69]

Here is some good reading for you guys. I never thought about the fact that since God was the only reason for the creation of earth back when the constitution was written, how could they have thought that secularism was even an issue? Without being there when the constitution was written, we will never know the 100% truth, but this does shed a light on it. http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/04-29-05.asp

[ArturoC]

But you and Arturo both, are trying to point out every possible way we could be sinners, or not following our Christian beliefs to a T. It is like you are judging us, which we are all guilty of at times, there is only one that is right in doing that. God himself. There is no point in making posts like this to attack Christians. Thats the way it comes across.


A) It's not my intent to point out the sins of anybody
B) If you can't follow your own chosen belief system, don't push it on others. No excuses.

C) My only concern is the separation of church and state. Keep your beliefs, more power to you. But EVEN YOU CHRISTIANS should be able to see and appreciate the foundation of church and state and should back it.

It's too easy to let things slide just because they happen to coincide with your own belief system.

I'm sure most of you christians would be opposed to a theocracy/theonomy.

Keep it separate.

[cogs69]

A) It's not my intent to point out the sins of anybody
B) If you can't follow your own chosen belief system, don't push it on others. No excuses.

C) My only concern is the separation of church and state. Keep your beliefs, more power to you. But EVEN YOU CHRISTIANS should be able to see and appreciate the foundation of church and state and should back it.

It's too easy to let things slide just because they happen to coincide with your own belief system.

I'm sure most of you christians would be opposed to a theocracy/theonomy.

Keep it separate.

But again, that is YOUR OPINION. Read the article I posted in my last reply and you will understand why Christians believe religion is, and always was part of the state. The men that wrote the constitution WERE christians, that was the only explanation for this earth being here for them. With that said, there was no reason what so ever to have to point out the word God. Do they have to point out that you need oxygen to breathe? No, that is all we know and it is common fact. Thats how strong christianity was back then. It didn't have to be written, it wasn't questioned.

Now you can disagree, but we don't have to agree with your opinion on seperating it either.

[cogs69]

By the way, Paniro's post wasn't on whether or not God should be part of the state, it was about worshiping something other than God.

[ArturoC]

Here is some good reading for you guys. I never thought about the fact that since God was the only reason for the creation of earth back when the constitution was written, how could they have thought that secularism was even an issue? Without being there when the constitution was written, we will never know the 100% truth, but this does shed a light on it. http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/04-29-05.asp



That's an awful lot of words to explain the absence of god from the constitution as simply being 'textual'. Heck the first two paragraphs mention the absence of god, but then talks about religion. Not quite the same thing.

[ArturoC]

But again, that is YOUR OPINION. Read the article I posted in my last reply and you will understand why Christians believe religion is, and always was part of the state.


I did read it. It was full of OPINIONS.. "the most likely reason was.." etc.



The men that wrote the constitution WERE christians, that was the only explanation for this earth being here for them.

We've had this discussion in another thread, but there were several key figures who identified themselves as DIEST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). Not christian.


Take for example Thomas Jefferson, one of the most famous of the founding fathers. He created his own version of the bible. The Jefferson Bible as it was known. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

"The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was an attempt by Thomas Jefferson to glean the teachings of Jesus from the Christian Gospels. Jefferson wished to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists.[1] In essence, Thomas Jefferson did not believe in Jesus' divinity, the Trinity, the resurrection, miracles, or any other supernatural aspect described in the Bible."




With that said, there was no reason what so ever to have to point out the word God. Do they have to point out that you need oxygen to breathe? No, that is all we know and it is common fact. Thats how strong christianity was back then. It didn't have to be written, it wasn't questioned.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. " -- Thomas Jefferson

[ArturoC]

One more from TJ

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.

[ArturoC]

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring
about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas
Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799

[paniro187]

here's some good bible reading for you cogs.

you didn't read the scripture before when you quoted 1 peter youi only quoted what you wanted to quote.

1 peter 2:12

12 Maintain YOUR conduct fine among the nations, that, in the thing in which they are speaking against YOU as evildoers, they may as a result of YOUR fine works of which they are eyewitnesses glorify God in the day for [his] inspection.


matt 22:20-21

And he said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”


and chapter 4 vs15 of the same book.

15 However, let none of YOU suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a busybody in other people’s matters.

these scriptures are saying that you obey human law AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CONFLICT WITH GODS LAW. IN WHICH PLEDGING ALLEGIANCE TO A FLAG IS IDOLATRY THEREFORE NOT FAVORABLE IN GODS EYES.

dictionary.com

i·dol·a·try /aɪˈdɒlətri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahy-dol-uh-tree] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tries.
1. the religious worship of idols.
2. excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc.

[Sifu-TZ]

Another reason NOT to take the bible so literally. Or we'd all be going to hell for wearing shirts made of fabric blends. Don't make me quote it. You could go nuts trying not to do every hell-worthy offence.

[paniro187]

Another reason NOT to take the bible so literally. Or we'd all be going to hell for wearing shirts made of fabric blends. Don't make me quote it. You could go nuts trying not to do every hell-worthy offence.

wide and spacioius is the road to destruction cramped and narrow is the road to salvation. meaning i'ts really hard to be a TRUE christian.

[witchdoctor575]

wide and spacioius is the road to destruction cramped and narrow is the road to salvation. meaning i'ts really hard to be a TRUE christian.

I really don't think there are many TRUE christians...there are however alot of people that would like to think of themselves as true christians.

[paniro187]

I really don't think there are many TRUE christians...there are however alot of people that would like to think of themselves as true christians.very true and just for the record i'm far from a true christian cause though i know what i know I don't practice. But i'm slowly getting back.

[witchdoctor575]

FROM WIKIPEDIA

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry.



sounds to me like pledging allegiance to your country is a form of idolatry. Yet the "true christian" right do it.

what about the push to idolize soldiers. saying children to look up to them and this and that. having parades in honor of soliders and all that..............idolizing them.................



WHAT SAY YOU???

interesting topic...I haven't seen any push to idolize the soldiers. I don't feel that giving support to the troops is a form of worship nor do I see any level of putting them in GOD status. As far as the pledge goes I think it is just a form of( I hate to say the term because it isn't quit right) "brainwashing". meaning it is meant to foster a sense of loyalty to the country to which we reside.

[witchdoctor575]

very true and just for the record i'm far from a true christian cause though i know what i know I don't practice. But i'm slowly getting back.

every one is human...I don't hold people to the imperfections of being human...it is the people that preach down to others while leading the imoral life that I cannot stand.

[dirtyrice411]

The words 'under god' were added 50 years after the pledge was written. IMO, the addition of those words were to impose the requirement of a belief in a christian god for Americans.

I call :bs: It is unconstitutional.

The constitution makes makes mention a generic 'creator' which is not specific to any religion, not does it even imply a supernatural deity or god.

Darwinism/evolution says we evolved naturally through a process over time. We could say that we were created by nature, but I'm not going to add 'under nature', or 'under science' to any pledge. It sounds just as stupid as adding 'under god'.

+5461984894156189895141

and I didn't get a vote??? wtf????
of course if we did get a vote. I bet the count for "god" wouldn't be so one sided.:keke: :keke: :keke:

Im sorry but everything has problems and flaws. and the idea of a super being with no problems no flaws, and creater of everything that is sooo flawed (in his image? right?) is just obserd to me. logically in my mind I can't conceive such ideas. I could go on but. I don't want to piss people off. you have your beliefs, I have mine. Im not trying to flame just saying what I think. please don't think im trying to point out flaws in people's religions or judge. I will do that in person after I meet you.:keke: :keke: :keke: :eek3:

[dirtyrice411]

I don't think that having a parade for soilders would be un-christian. going to war would be. teaching our kids to respect those that fight for us isn't unchristian. but trying to make them want to go to war would be.

does that make any sence to anyone?

i see both sides of how it can be considered. I hate to admit it but I have to agree with the bible thumpers when it comes to the vets. :/: :angry7:

[Sifu-TZ]

So here's the theory.
At a certain age people become aware of their own mortality. Fear of death is programmed in our DNA. Everyone must confront the fact that you will die one day. Unfortunatly we have no known information about what happens after you die. Near-death experiences can be recreated in the G force machine they test pilots in. There is lots of literature, but nothing anywhere shows real proof of what happens after you die. We all struggle to deal with the concept that maybe, just maybe nothing happens. This is where religeous people start getting upset. Sorry, but no way of knowing the real truth until you die. Given this, people find ways to handle this psychologically. Religeon teaches a way to beat death, and each one has it's path to heaven. It's called faith because you don't really know. People claim to see ghosts, talk to the dead. Another way of saying "there's more out there" when it's not possible to know for sure. You can't recreate a ghost experience, and most intelligent people are gonna agree that it's crap. So a lot of people find a religeon or after-death theory and hold to it. And these people stick together, giving a feeling that in numbers it must be safe. People then draw lines in an attempt to decide who can and who can't get in their collective idea of heaven. No one wants murderers' in, but hey I don't like those guys so here's why they can't get in. Now we have a team effort, my heaven vs your heaven. My path must be right, look at how many follow us? My invisable friend and your invisable friend are locked in a battle for heaven, our souls, right and wrong, and who gets the last slice of pie. It's no wonder people get so mad when you disagree with their choice of death-views, it's what keeps you from going crazy about the thought of nothing happening after death and everything being meaningless. Oh, and without a god, people would turn carnivorous and crazy, raping and murdering with no thought of consequence or formal justice. Hence, religeon. Laws in place to help us act right and go to a better bus stop. It doesn't matter if your religeon keeps you acting right, living a good life as a good citizen raising productive children. If your death view is different, a line is drawn and judgements are made. Look at how different mormons are treated, catholics, protestants, ect. Seperation, as in I'm the good guy and you're not cuz you're not really with us. Does each religeon really teach huge differences? Yes, in some ways. If you were to start a race of people what would you decree? Pretty obvious. No murdering, it's not good for a growing society. No lying or cheating, another easy one. Being nice to each other, forgiving of petty things help society get along. Follow my rules only, thats an obvious one. And so rules form to help produce a society where the human species can fourish and continue. How many religeons have these rules? Most. They are good rules. But some people become locked in, they can't see any way but their own. And soon they pick apart these documents, the bible, the koran, the book of mormon, the watchtower. See? This little passage written hundreds of years ago by a guy we don't actually know that has been translated several times and is possibly way off tells me I'm right and you're wrong and F you if you disagree with my death-view. Wars start over obscure words that may have been translated improperly. Do you really think a loving god wants you to kill each other over a metaphore?
I find important and usefull information in many of these books, the bible being one. Do I believe everything in there? No, a lot of these stories are metaphores, helping us when a literal translation just couldn't stand up over time but a story can. It was recent that the Declaration of Independance was written, and the Bill of Rights but they are also disputed. Do I believe a man lived to be over 900 years old, drank his ass off, built a boat that engineers say wouldn't float, had every species on earth within walking distance of his house, loaded them at a rate of 15,000 per minute (time it takes to put that many animals in that amout of space in time to leave before getting drowned) then sailed around waiting for an island to pop up? No I do not, but it's a good story that I understand what the author was trying to convey.
Trying to have s positive affect on the people around you is more important than convincing someone your religeon is the right one.

[Mala Lingua]

I'm sure most of you christians would be opposed to a theocracy/theonomy.

Keep it separate.

Didn't work out so well for the Puritans in Salem, MS.

[Mala Lingua]

FROM WIKIPEDIA

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry.



sounds to me like pledging allegiance to your country is a form of idolatry. Yet the "true christian" right do it.

what about the push to idolize soldiers. saying children to look up to them and this and that. having parades in honor of soliders and all that..............idolizing them.................



WHAT SAY YOU???



+1 to the comment about Wikipedia being a poor source to pull info from. The lines here are blurring between idolizing and honoring. There are folks out there who have deified animals and trees, so I guess there are a few who have diefied soldiers, (I bet you can spot em a mile away though :eek3:) but holding a celebration in their honor (a parade) is no different than holding a feast during biblical times. And if one chooses to pledge allegiance to something or someone, it's simply an oath to be loyal. We all have allegiances that we keep, though there is often no formal pledge.

[paniro187]

+1 to the comment about Wikipedia being a poor source to pull info from. The lines here are blurring between idolizing and honoring. There are folks out there who have deified animals and trees, so I guess there are a few who have diefied soldiers, (I bet you can spot em a mile away though :eek3:) but holding a celebration in their honor (a parade) is no different than holding a feast during biblical times. And if one chooses to pledge allegiance to something or someone, it's simply an oath to be loyal. We all have allegiances that we keep, though there is often no formal pledge.

I posted dictionary.com's def. of the same word.

1. the religious worship of idols.
2. excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc.
[Origin: 1200–50; ME idolatrie < ML īdōlatrīa, by haplology from LL īdōlolatrīa Gk (NT) eidōlolatreía. See idol -latry]

—Synonyms 2. obsession, madness, mania.


tell me that's not the def of America fanatics.

[Mala Lingua]

I posted dictionary.com's def. of the same word.

1. the religious worship of idols.
2. excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc.
[Origin: 1200–50; ME idolatrie < ML īdōlatrīa, by haplology from LL īdōlolatrīa Gk (NT) eidōlolatreía. See idol -latry]

—Synonyms 2. obsession, madness, mania.


tell me that's not the def of America fanatics.

Then I guess the issue becomes the determination between excessive devotion and adoration versus honor/respect/allegiance. I don't think it's safe to say that pledging allegiance to the U.S. flag is a blanket case of idolotry. For starters, I imagine a lot of people say it in vain without any intent--or passion--behind it. :/: Fanatics though? Well, they're fanatics.

And sorry about missing the definition post. The thread was going down so many worm-holes that I decided to abandon them and respond to your initial post. :D

OK, I know I sound like a nag here :D but dictionary.com is a murky place too. I've pulled out the OED--Oxford English Dictionary.

Wait! Completely OT, but I just saw "dumbledore" as I was thumbing thru to "idolotry." Curious. . .Dumbledore: A humble-bee or bumble-bee, also a cockchafer. Holy chit! That's, uh, sublime. :rofl: See also, Drumble-dore: a clumsily-flying insect, a dor-beetle, or bumble bee, fig. a heavy stupid fellow.

Back on track.

Idol(oltry): Oi. It's a BIG one. For the uninitiated, most people need a magnifying glass to read OED entries. My set came with one. :rofl: The gist of the primary definition though is that an idol is anything or person who usurps the place of God in human affection due to excessive or extreme devotion.

It comes back to excessive and extreme. I can honestly claim that saying the pledge of allegiance and my respect for soldiers doesn't outstrip my love for God. I know there are folks out there who tangle together patriotism with religion: that whole for honor of God and country business. It's dangerous.

Aww hell, Paniro. I've become engrossed in the thing here, and I'm not certain we aren't reinforcing one another's positions. :D I need to read some other posts in the thread. And for the record, I'm still reeling over the dumbledore definition. :rofl:

[Cherub]

ps 115:4-8 (im just quoting verse 8) talking about those that make idoles "those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them."

I find it interesting that when saying the pledge you are trusting in "one nation"



Another note I dont think anyone is try to discredit anyones beliefs but rather share information and scriptures that will help as a study aid. and then theres arturo LOL j/p

[Mala Lingua]

ps 115:4-8 (im just quoting verse 8) talking about those that make idoles "those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them."

I find it interesting that when saying the pledge you are trusting in "one nation"



Another note I dont think anyone is try to discredit anyones beliefs but rather share information and scriptures that will help as a study aid. and then theres arturo LOL j/p

:rofl:
On that note, have we posted the complete pledge yet? We can dissect it. :nod: :D

[JSki]

Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but the pledge of allegiance puts God above itself. "One nation UNDER God" . Therefore you are putting it second to God so it would not quite be idolatry... just some food for thought.
-JSki

[paniro187]

Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but the pledge of allegiance puts God above itself. "One nation UNDER God" . Therefore you are putting it second to God so it would not quite be idolatry... just some food for thought.
-JSki
an example of being able to idolize multiple people (what the bible says don't do) is greeks who served all gods but the top was zeus so don't say yeah god is at the top so it's ok.

[paniro187]

ps 115:4-8 (im just quoting verse 8) talking about those that make idoles "those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them."

I find it interesting that when saying the pledge you are trusting in "one nation"



Another note I dont think anyone is try to discredit anyones beliefs but rather share information and scriptures that will help as a study aid. and then theres arturo LOL j/p+1 unlike cogds who thinks i'm trying to train as the anti christ I'm merely offering info and wondering what's peoples thoughts on it. open your eyes past tradition and what you've grown up doing......

[cogs69]

+1 unlike cogds who thinks i'm trying to train as the anti christ I'm merely offering info and wondering what's peoples thoughts on it. open your eyes past tradition and what you've grown up doing......

haha, you are and you know it. Lol, just seems like Christianity has been taking a beating in this forum for about a month now. Sorry if I feel defensive about it.

[Cherub]

:rofl:
On that note, have we posted the complete pledge yet? We can dissect it. :nod: :D

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

have at it MALA

[Cherub]

Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but the pledge of allegiance puts God above itself. "One nation UNDER God" . Therefore you are putting it second to God so it would not quite be idolatry... just some food for thought.
-JSki

The bible states you cannot serve two masters. although it was talking about god and riches the principle is the same.

[cogs69]

The bible states you cannot serve two masters. although it was talking about god and riches the principle is the same.

But the bible does also say, honor your government and the officials whether they are Christian or not, as they were all put there by the hand of God. I think the only one that can TRULY judge whether or not it is idolatry or just honoring is God himself. Guess it comes down to what he thinks when our shortest part of our journey is up here on earth.