MILITARY DEATH TOLL IN IRAQ AT 3,463

[Candy]

So I hear the "terrorist" had a wonderful MEMORIAL DAY, seeming as though they not only killed 2,973 Americans on 9/11. But in OUR failed response to avenge the attack, have managed to let us DOUBLE that number and add 490to it with our American troops, their toll being 3,463....AS OF THIS MORNING THAT IS....That's a total of 6,436 AMERICAN LIVES being lost!

Is this just the sickest thing!!! Not too mention the democrats pu$$y'ing up and FAILING TO END THIS CARNAGE AS THEY PROMISED THEY WOULD IN THE NOV ELECTIONS. Each day I hear about somebodies child or spouse coming home in a bodybag I can't help but to feel angry that there is nothing that can be done to stop this senselessness it seems!!!

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! For Memorial Day, I sat at home and THANKED ALL THE SERVICE MEN/WOMEN for their dedication to our country AND CURSED THE PIECE OF $h!T policitians who are keeping them in harms way FOR A LOST CAUSE, or better yet a cause that NEVER REALLY EXISTED IN THE 1ST PLACE!!!

Sorry for venting, just SUCKS BIG GORILLA BALLS!!!!

[Gigolo Jason]

How many of the enemy have been killed since September 11th?

I find it ironic that everyone dwells on the US death toll with out any mention of the enemy KIA numbers.

[Candy]

How many of the enemy have been killed since September 11th?

I find it ironic that everyone dwells on the US death toll with out any mention of the enemy KIA numbers.

GOOD POINT. But i thinks it's hard to calculate, b/c who is really the ENEMY, insurgents, "known" terrorists, civilians combating occupation! Furthermore, the civilian death toll in Iraq has been more since our occupation than Saddam.

[maskale]

if the US was not there, what do you think would happen? Just asking.....

[Gigolo Jason]

GOOD POINT. But i thinks it's hard to calculate, b/c who is really the ENEMY, insurgents, "known" terrorists, civilians combating occupation!

Give it a shot. I will give you a WIDE margin of error. :laughing6

Furthermore, the civilian death toll in Iraq has been more since our occupation than Saddam.

Oh really? Are you sure about that? If enemy casualties can't be "known" how can this possibly be an accurate claim?


Let me give you some of Saddam's death toll numbers.

1974: Zakho and Qala'at Diza are raised, 8,000 Lurds dead,

1978: 7,000 Iraqi Communists purged,

1980: Iran-Iraq war: 1,000,000+ deaths on both sides. This has to be included since Saddam started the war.

1988: Anfal campaign against the Kurds, 180,000 dead

1988: Halabja is gassed, 5,000 dead, 10,000 injured

Gulf War, Also started by Saddam, 200,000+ deaths,


Should I continue?

[Candy]

if the US was not there, what do you think would happen? Just asking.....


Personally I would hope the people of Iraq would rise up and influence a fury of their own against those that are stopping them from living a prosporous and peaceful life, if they so CHOOSE to do so. Our mission was terrorism and those who contributed to 9/11, not the Iraqis, and as far as i'm concerned, not Saddam, which is what we have turned it into.

I feel as though we COULD have been helpful with a distant hand in guiding them from their prosecutors, but not stepping into SOLVE the problem. Which in retrospect we have done just the other. We came in, took out the prosecutor, but MADE things EVEN MORE WORSE OFF THAN THEY EVER WERE BEFORE.

If we would have left all as well, it would have been the iraqis problem to face not our 3463 and counting.

[Candy]

Give it a shot. I will give you a WIDE margin of error. :laughing6



Oh really? Are you sure about that? If enemy casualties can't be "known" how can this possibly be an accurate claim?


Let me give you some of Saddam's death toll numbers.

1974: Zakho and Qala'at Diza are raised, 8,000 Lurds dead,

1978: 7,000 Iraqi Communists purged,

1980: Iran-Iraq war: 1,000,000+ deaths on both sides. This has to be included since Saddam started the war.

1988: Anfal campaign against the Kurds, 180,000 dead

1988: Halabja is gassed, 5,000 dead, 10,000 injured

Gulf War, Also started by Saddam, 200,000+ deaths,


Should I continue?

We're talking about him taking a civilian and literally SENTENCING HIM/HER TO DEATH. Persecuted people of iraq that were KILLED AT HIS BEQUEST UNDER HIS RULE, which so we say is what we were fighting against. So that's 420k compared to the 650k and counting.

1.7 mil in Iran/Iraq war WAS OVER AN EIGHT YR PERIOD. We've managed to almost reach the halfway mark in just 3 years, at the rate we going will surmount that figure within the next year!!!!!!

[maskale]

afganistan was 9/11

iraq was because of WMDs


Please I am by no means saying or defending why we are there, but if the people will not rise against them now with help, they sure will not do it on their own. There are lots of vids. on the net of people being executed by non military personel, if the Iraqis really wanted insurgents out of the country it would have already happened. If the US left the country would go to waste and another Saddam would take over.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

...1.7 mil in Iran/Iraq war WAS OVER AN EIGHT YR PERIOD. We've managed to almost reach the halfway mark in just 3 years, at the rate we going will surmount that figure within the next year!!!!!!

LMAO:laughing6 Very nice...

[maskale]

not saying it ain't so, but how have we reached the halfway mark to 1.7mil already?

[Candy]

not saying it ain't so, but how have we reached the halfway mark to 1.7mil already?

At the rate we are going on civilian deaths we will have reached the halfway mark by next year!

[whosthis]

guy from TC was killed yesturday i believe,

[Candy]

afganistan was 9/11

iraq was because of WMDs


Please I am by no means saying or defending why we are there, but if the people will not rise against them now with help, they sure will not do it on their own. There are lots of vids. on the net of people being executed by non military personel, if the Iraqis really wanted insurgents out of the country it would have already happened. If the US left the country would go to waste and another Saddam would take over.

Then so be it. If they are not ASKING for our help, then Y butt in. Since we have butted in, and made life even more miserable than it was before, they now almost have NO CHOICE but to depend on us there.

[Candy]

guy from TC was killed yesturday i believe,


I think i've heard about that :angry7:

[maskale]

At the rate we are going on civilian deaths we will have reached the halfway mark by next year!


Oh, gotcha.

LOTS and LOTS of those deaths have been because of executions and bombings on civilians. Those deaths would take place weather the US was their or not because the insurgents are trying to take over a country and rule with fear.

[whosthis]

I think i've heard about that :angry7:
ya 1 of TCMATT's frnds

[Candy]

Oh, gotcha.

LOTS and LOTS of those deaths have been because of executions and bombings on civilians. Those deaths would take place weather the US was their or not because the insurgents are trying to take over a country and rule with fear.

I agree with that to a degree, I doubt its the insurgents sending fear upon the people, more than it is that they are using the people's deaths to put blood on OUR hands for being there.

[maskale]

Have we made it worse? Who can say unless you were there to live it.
I will agree though that things probably are not much better if any, I sure dont think that they are worse though. The locals know who the insurgents are and they protect them, yet the same ones they protect are also the ones that bomb the market places.

[maskale]

more than it is that they are using the people's deaths to put blood on OUR hands for being there.


Yep, that is exactly what happens too.

[Candy]

Have we made it worse? Who can say unless you were there to live it.
I will agree though that things probably are not much better if any, I sure dont think that they are worse though. The locals know who the insurgents are and they protect them, yet the same ones they protect are also the ones that bomb the market places.


I doubt those market places were being bombed at will 3 years ago!

[Candy]

Have we made it worse? Who can say unless you were there to live it.
I will agree though that things probably are not much better if any, I sure dont think that they are worse though. The locals know who the insurgents are and they protect them, yet the same ones they protect are also the ones that bomb the market places.

OH AND...
"According to one recent poll sponsored by the U.S. government, 45 percent of Iraqis support the insurgent attacks against coalition troops and a majority of Iraqis oppose having the U.S.-led multinational force in the country, and feel less safe with foreign troop patrols in their neighborhood."

[kstrs]

The dems dont have what it takes to protect you, as shown by madame speaker & her trip to consult with a known sponsor of international terrorism (& many other examples). This issue is much bigger than politics, we will have to defend ourselves against these fanatics either here or there. As the saying goes "A good offense is the best defense", the nutty bastards who will detonate themselves to kill a bussload of children cannot be reasoned with nor can those who fund them (in spite of speaker Pelosey's efforts). All this points to an unavoidable fact that many Americans are going to have to reckon with....... Those sworn to defend this country (whatever their motivation) are going to be killed and/or maimed. The least we as Americans can do is to support them in their mission and aknowlege the good things they've done or shut the **** up so as to not embolden those they are fighting.

Show some support.... http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org
https://www.treatsfortroops.com/foster/index.php?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

afganistan was 9/11

iraq was because of WMDs


Please I am by no means saying or defending why we are there, but if the people will not rise against them now with help, they sure will not do it on their own. There are lots of vids. on the net of people being executed by non military personel, if the Iraqis really wanted insurgents out of the country it would have already happened. If the US left the country would go to waste and another Saddam would take over.

For the underlined point, I would then ask should we go and invade every other country that needs regime change? I surely would hope not.

As for the rest, I think you are inherently right about Iraqis needing to be more palpable as to where they stand with insurgents and the dominant insurgent cause. I think most of the reason that they are not, however, is more due to fear of reprimand and quite possibly need than agreement. Iraqis usually have the choice of either occasionally storing ordinance in their households or rendering some other form of aid to insurgents or having their family abducted, raped, tortured and possibly wiped out. The situation is bleak, I am giving Bush until his fall deadline before deciding whether I personanlly think we should leave or not. I currently think we should stay although I believe we shouldn't have been there in the first place. I suppose I am of the mindset, we broke it, we must fix it.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

/\ to add to that...

If Iraq was really all about WMD's then neither the Indians nor the Pak's would have them and the Iranians and North Koreans would no longer be known locations on any map...

[Candy]

The dems dont have what it takes to protect you, as shown by madame speaker & her trip to consult with a known sponsor of international terrorism (& many other examples). This issue is much bigger than politics, we will have to defend ourselves against these fanatics either here or there. As the saying goes "A good offense is the best defense", the nutty bastards who will detonate themselves to kill a bussload of children cannot be reasoned with nor can those who fund them (in spite of speaker Pelosey's efforts). All this points to an unavoidable fact that many Americans are going to have to reckon with....... Those sworn to defend this country (whatever their motivation) are going to be killed and/or maimed. The least we as Americans can do is to support them in their mission and aknowlege the good things they've done or shut the **** up so as to not embolden those they are fighting.

Show some support.... http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org
https://www.treatsfortroops.com/foster/index.php?

I've participated in treats for troops 5 x's already, a great cause!!!! Wasnt aware of the 1st one will try that too.

I for one am HONORED with the response of our ARMED FORCES. Every time I see military personnel, I STOP THEM AND SAY THANK U WHENEVER I CAN!!! I support what they do, but don't support WHY they r having to do it. I don't see where their sacrifices in THIS PARTICULAR situation r making it safer for anyone of us, which is what they have sworn to do, protect us not iraqis!

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Oh, gotcha.

LOTS and LOTS of those deaths have been because of executions and bombings on civilians. Those deaths would take place weather the US was their or not because the insurgents are trying to take over a country and rule with fear.

I disagrre with this assertion, the insurgents wouldn't have been allowed to forum to conduct such attacks but for the removal of Saddam and his security forces. If we had not removed him, such attacks would NOT be happening. This has been the assessment of our government as well as those in the EU and others....

[Candy]

North Koreans would no longer be known locations on any map...

I believe that only to the level that we would have lost about 50% of our own geographical status in the war!!! THEY ACTUALLY GOT BUTTONS AND BOMBS TO PUSH!!!!! :laughing6

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Have we made it worse? Who can say unless you were there to live it.
I will agree though that things probably are not much better if any, I sure dont think that they are worse though. The locals know who the insurgents are and they protect them, yet the same ones they protect are also the ones that bomb the market places.

They are definately worse off....I've posted waaaay too many sources on here in waaaay too many boards to want to go back and find those docs but it is pretty commonly accepted that more I raqis are dying now than did under saddam, particularly relative to the amount of time passed.

[kstrs]

I disagrre with this assertion, the insurgents wouldn't have been allowed to forum to conduct such attacks but for the removal of Saddam and his security forces. If we had not removed him, such attacks would NOT be happening. This has been the assessment of our government as well as those in the EU and others....

The primary motivation for insurgent activity in Iraq did not exist under saddam, the American military. The desire to give us a black eye draws foreign terrorists to Iraq from throughout the region.

[RogerT]

Please continue your support for our troops, Pray for my 2nd son Todd Therkildsen (Gunmetal), Stationed in Germany (Army), returning to Germany after Brother Eric (Therky42) wedding this past Saturday. Todd heads to Bagdad June 8th with his unit. Eric (Marines) served one tour and is set to go back in 08. Thanks, RT

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

I believe that only to the level that we would have lost about 50% of our own geographical status in the war!!! THEY ACTUALLY GOT BUTTONS AND BOMBS TO PUSH!!!!! :laughing6

Nah, the Koreans have the weapons but are unable to put them to any real use other than perhaps making a dirty bomb or selling the materials to insurgents for that purpose. They are close though, and don't believe for a second that they aren't still working on it...regardless of any agreement we have with them.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

The primary motivation for insurgent activity in Iraq did not exist under saddam, the American military. The desire to give us a black eye draws foreign terrorists to Iraq from throughout the region.

Basically an extention of what I am saying and have said on numerous occasions....

The motivation nor the opportunity...

[Candy]

The primary motivation for insurgent activity in Iraq did not exist under saddam, the American military. The desire to give us a black eye draws foreign terrorists to Iraq from throughout the region.


This is why it IS OUR FAULT FOR BEING THERE, that the iraqi people are suffering at the hands of insurgency!!

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

This is why it IS OUR FAULT FOR BEING THERE, that the iraqi people are suffering at the hands of insurgency!!

Somehow I don't believe the point is carrying over tho...:keke:

[kstrs]

I agree this war was probably ill-conceived & now there is no easy solution other than sack-up & stick it out till the job is done or is proven to be unlikely to be done.

[Candy]

Nah, the Koreans have the weapons but are unable to put them to any real use other than perhaps making a dirty bomb or selling the materials to insurgents for that purpose. They are close though, and don't believe for a second that they aren't still working on it...regardless of any agreement we have with them.

Terribly disagree!!! They got em and are prepared to use them!!! They are a hell of a lot more closer now than Saddam would have EVER BEEN!!!

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

*extension

[Candy]

Please continue your support for our troops, Pray for my 2nd son Todd Therkildsen (Gunmetal), Stationed in Germany (Army), returning to Germany after Brother Eric (Therky42) wedding this past Saturday. Todd heads to Bagdad June 8th with his unit. Eric (Marines) served one tour and is set to go back in 08. Thanks, RT

THIS IS A GIVEN!!!! My support and prayers are with each 1 that they make a safe return home!!!

[Candy]

I agree this war was probably ill-conceived & now there is no easy solution other than sack-up & stick it out till the job is done or is proven to be unlikely to be done.

YEAH BUT AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR SOLDIERS, that just doesnt sound just!

[kstrs]

This is why it IS OUR FAULT FOR BEING THERE, that the iraqi people are suffering at the hands of insurgency!!

& will continue to do so after we depart (like they did under saddam) What do we do now? give up & come home? & wait to be attacked again? I say keep em busy over there until the mission is a known failure.

[Candy]

& will continue to do so after we depart (like they did under saddam) What do we do now? give up & come home? & wait to be attacked again? I say keep em busy over there until the mission is a known failure.


So we make calculated steps to prepare to come home, and stand in defense to GAURD our country from being attacked again!!!

** edit

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Terribly disagree!!! They got em and are prepared to use them!!! They are a hell of a lot more closer now than Saddam would have EVER BEEN!!!

Well yeah, they are waaaay more of a threat than was Saddam (yet in response we present them with aid packages). This however does not mean they have such control of the technology that they are capable of packaging it up into a missile capable of reaching the US and actually effectively detonating once here. They are a pretty poor country and such an undertaking would require both money and the technlogy...both items of limited supply in Korea. Remember those tests last summer? The nuclear test was a failed one, they were unsuccessful in their attempts to detonate the fissle material properly. They have the technology, they just don't know how to put it to use...yet.

[Candy]

Well yeah, they are waaaay more of a threat than was Saddam (yet in response we present them with aid packages). This however does not means they have such control of the technology that they are capable of packaging it up into a missile capable of reaching the US and actually effectively detonating once here. They are a pretty poor country and such an undertaking would require both and the technlogy...both items of limited supply in Korea. Remember those tests last summer? The nuclear test was a failed one, they were unsuccessful in their attempts to detonate the fissle material properly. They have the technology, they just don't know how to put it to use...yet.

That's a small yet, and since our list of enemies is growing larger and larger, i'm sure the money and extra brain power aren't far away!

[kstrs]

YEAH BUT AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR SOLDIERS, that just doesnt sound just!

See post # 22, I dont like it either:dontknow:

[Candy]

See post # 22, I dont like it either:dontknow:

oh yeah we absolutely agree on this!! :icon_thum

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

That's a small yet, and since our list of enemies is growing larger and larger, i'm sure the money and extra brain power aren't far away!

Exactly why I think this administration has been more of a negative than a positive. We attack a country that at the time, was a questionable threat (Iraq) yet we give aid to one which definately IS a threat Korea. Iran, laughs in our face and says they will do as they please, support entities carrying out attacks on US assets and seek nukes and disregard the security counsel on a regular yet we continue to seek a diplomatic effort. Why? This administration is ass backwards in just about ALL of its endeavours. Whether it be the trade deficit with China, Illegal Imigration, Foreign policy, Social Security, medicare...any damn thing...ridiculous

[kstrs]

Please continue your support for our troops, Pray for my 2nd son Todd Therkildsen (Gunmetal), Stationed in Germany (Army), returning to Germany after Brother Eric (Therky42) wedding this past Saturday. Todd heads to Bagdad June 8th with his unit. Eric (Marines) served one tour and is set to go back in 08. Thanks, RT

:notworthy Will Do.... humbly, It'll be a serious Honor.

[jus10]

since we are discussing the death toll in Iraq, I feel it is just for me to add...

As some of you may remember, I have a close friend in Baghdad whose Humvee was hit by an IED a few days ago. He made it out ok though (concussion and minor wounds) however the other humvee that came to their rescue was hit by an IED as well killing 2 of our troops. They are a little shook up, but nonetheless are still fighting. I'm not personally big on the prayer thing, but if it helps and you could find the time...well, ya know.

also, I don't think anyone agrees 100% with WHY we went there. (nor does it matter now) it's all about how we fix it. Kind of like when you scratch someone's car that you had no business driving. It doesn't matter why you drove it now, it's how are we going to fix this before we have to buy it.

[Candy]

since we are discussing the death toll in Iraq, I feel it is just for me to add...

As some of you may remember, I have a close friend in Baghdad whose Humvee was hit by an IED a few days ago. He made it out ok though (concussion and minor wounds) however the other humvee that came to their rescue was hit by an IED as well killing 2 of our troops. They are a little shook up, but nonetheless are still fighting. I'm not personally big on the prayer thing, but if it helps and you could find the time...well, ya know.

also, I don't think anyone agrees 100% with WHY we went there. (nor does it matter now) it's all about how we fix it. Kind of like when you scratch someone's car that you had no business driving. It doesn't matter why you drove it now, it's how are we going to fix this before we have to buy it.


Pray each day believe it or not!

[Candy]

Exactly why I think this administration has been more of a negative than a positive. We attack a country that at the time, was a questionable threat (Iraq) yet we give aid to one which definately IS a threat Korea. Iran, laughs in our face and says they will do as they please, support entities carrying out attacks on US assets and seek nukes and disregard the security counsel on a regular yet we continue to seek a diplomatic effort. Why? This administration is ass backwards in just about ALL of its endeavours. Whether it be the trade deficit with China, Illegal Imigration, Foreign policy, Social Security, medicare...any damn thing...ridiculous

keep ur friends close and ur REAL CAPABLE enemies closer comes to mind on this one!!!

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

keep ur friends close and ur REAL CAPABLE enemies closer comes to mind on this one!!!

Yea but I tend to think of Iranian leadership and the Koreans as klansmen...not much potential for true friendship or any other fruitful relationship. But hey...:dontknow:

[Candy]

Yea but I tend to think of Iranian leadership and the Koreans as klansmen...not much potential for true friendship or any other fruitful relationship. But hey...:dontknow:

Never an actual friendship... but u know we try to get into bed with what we consider assets!!

Friends with benefits, u don't luv em, u just get to phuck em when u like!!!

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Never an actual friendship... but u know we try to get into bed with what we consider assets!!

Friends with benefits, u don't luv em, u just get to phuck em when u like!!!

Reminds me of that movie with Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone...bang her but shes got a shank under the pillow :keke: Never...Korea has nothing to offer us...our best bet would be to aid a revolution.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Never an actual friendship... but u know we try to get into bed with what we consider assets!!

Friends with benefits, u don't luv em, u just get to phuck em when u like!!!

Reminds me of that movie with Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone...bang her but shes got a shank under the pillow :keke: Never...Korea has nothing to offer us...our best bet would be to aid a revolution. We've tried aid packages with the North Koreans in the 90's with Clinton to influence them not to seek nukes, well guess what, they went against the agreement and got um anyway. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...I need my ass kicked :icon_thum

[SPYDER BITE]

:keke: I used the war as a learning tool when I took my msf course, I couldn't remember what "see" was until I did a little word association.

S=SEARCH
E=EVALUATE
E=EXECUTE

Just like we did with saddam:keke: :keke: :keke:

[Candy]

Reminds me of that movie with Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone...bang her but shes got a shank under the pillow :keke: Never...Korea has nothing to offer us...our best bet would be to aid a revolution. We've tried aid packages with the North Koreans in the 90's with Clinton to influence them not to seek nukes, well guess what, they went against the agreement and got um anyway. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...I need my ass kicked :icon_thum

Sad but true!!!!

[maskale]

boy, I step away from my PC and missed 2 pages, sorry not going to read it all now, you guys have at it.

[Candy]

boy, I step away from my PC and missed 2 pages, sorry not going to read it all now, you guys have at it.

happens to me on way to many occasions as well. lol

[Gigolo Jason]

We're talking about him taking a civilian and literally SENTENCING HIM/HER TO DEATH. Persecuted people of iraq that were KILLED AT HIS BEQUEST UNDER HIS RULE, which so we say is what we were fighting against. So that's 420k compared to the 650k and counting.


650K, HAHAHA, don't make me laugh. Show me a credible report that states this.

YOU CAN'T.

[Candy]

650K, HAHAHA, don't make me laugh. Show me a credible report that states this.

YOU CAN'T.


It's actually included in the same credible report u pulled ur numbers from!

[Gigolo Jason]

It's actually included in the same credible report u pulled ur numbers from!

I didn't see any links to any reports in this thread.

If I missed where you posted them, please accept my apology.

In the mean time, let me give you some real numbers on who has and who has not died.

http://icasualties.org/oif/IraqiDeaths.aspx

Deaths Since April 28, 2005
(Shiite-led government announced):
Police/Mil: 5059
Civilians: 32248
Total: 37307

You got your 650K Iraqi death claim from the Johns Hopkins Lancet surveys, These are controversial at best and completely without merit at worst.

Lancet uses a statistical analysis that has the accuracy or a second grader playing darts. :gesture: It you don't believe me look it up.

I prefer the Iraq Body Count project to determine who has died.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project

They have extensive research and put the number of civilian deaths 64575 and 70724.

Between the Iraq Body Count and icasualties.org, you can get a decent estimate on how many people have died in Iraq.

Saddam was far worse.

[Candy]

I didn't see any links to any reports in this thread.

If I missed where you posted them, please accept my apology.

In the mean time, let me give you some real numbers on who has and who has not died.

http://icasualties.org/oif/IraqiDeaths.aspx

Deaths Since April 28, 2005
(Shiite-led government announced):
Police/Mil: 5059
Civilians: 32248
Total: 37307

You got your 650K Iraqi death claim from the Johns Hopkins Lancet surveys, These are controversial at best and completely without merit at worst.

Lancet uses a statistical analysis that has the accuracy or a second grader playing darts. :gesture: It you don't believe me look it up.

I prefer the Iraq Body Count project to determine who has died.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project

They have extensive research and put the number of civilian deaths 64575 and 70724.

Between the Iraq Body Count and icasualties.org, you can get a decent estimate on how many people have died in Iraq.

Saddam was far worse.

Good point and great facts! I'm hoping that u are also keeping in mind that not all of these are being reported. Even the page u are qtg list this warning label " This is not a complete list, nor can we verify these totals. This is simply a compilation of deaths reported by news agencies. Actual totals for Iraqi deaths are much higher than the numbers recorded on this site "

We also have a great deal of reports from soldies that were at Abu Ghrib even testifying to UNINDENTIFIED bodies of prisoners that were civilians that we were questioning as terrorists, bodies that went UNREPORTED.

[Gigolo Jason]

Good point and great facts! I'm hoping that u are also keeping in mind that not all of these are being reported. Even the page u are qtg list this warning label " This is not a complete list, nor can we verify these totals. This is simply a compilation of deaths reported by news agencies. Actual totals for Iraqi deaths are much higher than the numbers recorded on this site "

I agree, the way I see it is that we can double the numbers given from the websites that I showed above and probably come close the actually total death count. That would be around 150K, which is still a far cry from your original 650K number.

So lets take this number and run with it shall we. We have lost some 3K combat troops in Iraq but have killed 150K. I'm not the best at math, but thats a damn good kill ratio for a war in anyones book.

We also have a great deal of reports from soldies that were at Abu Ghrib even testifying to UNINDENTIFIED bodies of prisoners that were civilians that we were questioning as terrorists, bodies that went UNREPORTED.

I have heard of no such reports. Once again, you are speculating on rumors and hearsay. Show some creditable proof. :gesture:

[Tango1300]

Ok... enough. I've been lurking on this subject because I just love how some people can sit behind their computers and spout out numbers, opinions and media facts about the war in the sandbox. Have you been there yet? Have you even been to the airport to welcome home a SOLDIER? Have you spent one minute looking into their eyes just days after they have returned home...?

If you answer NO to any of these... please enjoy your opinion and please, visit your local recruiter so you can learn first hand how we are truly making a difference to millions of people across the world. I was there. I worked for Lockheed Martin and spent 6 months cleaning sand out of places you dare not to ask. I ate crappy food and dreamed of care packages from anywhere other than GSA/AEFES!

The media in the United States is SO biased its truly a crime! In Iraq, the civilians flock to the US armed forces vehicles demonstrating their adoration for removing the tyranny from their land. Its not an easy task and there is not one SOLDIER who doesn't flinch when a small child with loose clothing walks up to your vehicle because you just aren't sure if he will push a button and blow you to hell! Walk a day or even an hour in those boots... then stand on your box and yell loud... I will listen then!

Do you want this war on our shores? Do you want the NUMBER 2 target in America, to have the fighting here? You people complain about Katrina refugees stealing your stuff... What will you do when the war is on OUR Gulf Coast bombing the chemical plants and refinery pipeline to the entire NATION! Just in case you forgot... when Katrina and Rita came through... the East coast had NO fuel reserves ready to go. The pipeline for Natural Gas was blown and the prices went out of control as the supplies went away. What do you think will happen should such Terroristic chaos happen here?

Believe me... there is nothing safe about our airports. There is nothing safe about our highways. Any dedicated freak who thinks he has a cause can march across our borders, our shores and our land undetected! Its because the lowest common grade of beandip intelligence is manning the gates at our airports and streets. When was the last time you flew on an airline and saw some TSA employee that IMPRESSED you as intelligent!?!?!

These people are fanatical and you are arguing numbers... Hello? Does anyone remember the deaths in Bosnia too? Maybe over the past 20 years that Saddam has been busy, we were looking in other areas too... do those numbers count for deaths as well? I will happily give my life in Iraq or anywhere else, just so my daughter can sleep at night here in the United States!

If we leave there... wherever THERE is... the fight WILL come to our shores. Then what will you be saying? Oh... right, maybe that you should have supported Bush and being in Iraq cause you remember the days, wait... YEARS that the fighting was on someone else's land, far from here!

[Patrick]

Well said!:icon_thum

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

The whole ad hominiem/straw man thing is very unbecoming. It's hilarious when the argument: you weren't there and I was so I have more credibility to speak on the topic is old. It does not work. Not all soldiers feel that this war is one we should be involved in, there are quite a few that feel quite the oppoosite...they'll never go on the record saying so, but they definately feel it.
For those that want to sit and say that Iraqis are better off now is simply laughable. You know not what you are speaking of. I was told a story of an Iraqi that served as a federal attorney/prosecutor over in Iraq prior to the war making around 6 figures, guess what he does to support his family now? He sells apples on corners out in Falluja. You can not possibly tell me this guy is happier now than he was under Saddam. If you think his story is unique then you are more than foolish.
Yes, the media in the US is biased heavily against this war, but then again, alot of them are saying the same shyt that many other media outlets are saying. Besides, isn't the media an extension of American society? Even pundits on Fox News are admitting the dire situation in Iraq, this is a profound development whether many of you know it or not. They way I see it, sure, they are biased but there is some truth to what it is they are saying. It is not as if they are fabricating the 100's of bodies found tortured, mamed and shot execution style on a daily basis. This is truth. They are not fabricating the fact that a bomb goes off in a market place somewhere in Iraq killing many Iraqis daily. This is truth. They are not fabricating the fact that somewhere around 40%(Brookings Inst. (http://www3.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf)) of all US troop deaths in Iraq are due to IEDs in one form or another. This is truth.
With all this we are presuming ourselves so high and mighty that we are to say, atleast we are fighting over there and not here. I agree, to an extent....but lets not act as if it were okay to start a war on someone elses soil whom had nothing to do with the initial problem (Terrorists). Sure Saddam was a terrible person and even worse leader, the world is littered with them. Does that mean we are to go and remove all of them?(This is rhetorical in nature but I realize someone will more than likely try to answer it so I simply ask that you actually think about that answer before your reply) Our objective, or so I thought, was to remove the terrorists threat. With this war in Iraq, we have strengthened them and worse, nations such as Iran who sponsor them. This was highly counter-productive, but then that can go without being said. There were none-state sponsored terrorists- in Iraq prior to the start of the war. Being that we were supposed to fighting a global war on terror, why start a seperate war? The war on prohibited weapons, particularly when there was a question as to whether or not Saddam actually had them. Why not complete one objective (Afghanistan & the capture of bin Laden) before begininng any seperate endeavour?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Hubris comes to mind when I consider alot of what the hawkish-side of the conversation about whether or not we should have gone to Iraq has to say. Somehow, certain individuals think we have an endless supply of resources...you are flat wrong. It is not always necessary to conduct a full scale on-the-ground-war, hence, the reason I believe there was a better way to handle Saddam who was in fact a problem...only not so much of a problem that I think he warranted our full attention. Sun Tzu said it best: "Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field." Sadly, I don't think the Art of War was on either Bush, Cheney or especially Wolfowitz's mind when the time to decide whether or not to conduct regime change in Iraq manifested within the walls of the White House. Whether you all realize it or not, all that equipment that has been used, abused and recycled over there (Iraq AND Afghanistan) has a fail date. Who suffers the consequences when that equipment fails? (hint: Soldiers)
All in all, I seriously hope that lessons were learned and we never make the same foolish mistakes again. We must consider the urgency with which we should truly deem necessary when considering initiating a war. One more thing that I feel is necessary to say is that many of the numbers on the Iraq death tolls-atleast in the reports that I have read- include Iraqi civilians. To clump them with the terrorists and act as if they were deserving is asinine. Get your numbers/stats together before posting them, this is for whoever decides to post numbers and then make assertions based on those numbers. And I don't care what your opinion is on how many civilians are dying per day in Iraq. Fact is, more civilians are dying in Baghdad now than were dying in Iraq due to violence during prewar times. Read a few Senate Intel Reports, I've posted enough links to them on these boards. If you don't want to research the board then just hop on the Senate.gov website (www.senate.gov) and go to the Senate Intel Commitee page looking for their releases. If you say the Senate is anything less than a credible source of information, then I can't help you and we have nothing to discuss. There is no medium with which to use as a basis for discussion because there's obviously an inherent dichotomy in our lines of thinking.
This is aimed at no one in particular, just venting a little. I get a lil sick of seeing some of the things I see when this topic comes up...on...this...board.

p.s.
Sorry for the book...didn't realize I was writing this long...

[Candy]

UMMMMM, my bad but I haven't finish my cup of coffee to actually comprehend what u just wrote Sean, but I'm sure a
"i agree with most of that" and a
"well said"
are in order!!!

I always appreciate ur input whether pro or con with my opinion!!!

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

UMMMMM, my bad but I haven't finish my cup of coffee to actually comprehend what u just wrote Sean, but I'm sure a
"i agree with most of that" and a
"well said"
are in order!!!

I always appreciate ur input whether pro or con with my opinion!!!

:icon_thum Preciate it...lol. Let me know if I need to clarify anything. I kinda just wrote it and did a quick proofread for spelling errors. Don't even know if I got um all and I didn't check the fluidity of my writing so I'm on a prayer and a hope that it makes sense.:eh: :nod:

[Tango1300]

You obviously have your opinion set in the Liberal Stone... You are biasing your info on Government reports, media links and undocumented hearsay. You were TOLD A STORY about a prosecutor who made SIX figures before we came and straightened out the under-the-table regime and made the man legit. Shocker he has to do it the LEGAL way now or suffer. I'm shocked you cannot see through the blinding light enough to understand how the system truly works.

Did you NOT see the movie, GOOD MORNING VIETNAM? ALL military information is fed through a censoring system that gives not ONLY the public, but the military information it sees fit. Another movie that shows true censorship... FULL METAL JACKET. I am only quoting movies here since you've admitted that you have NO ACTUAL EXPERIENCE in any of the ARMED FORCES... wanna know a shocker...? Neither have I, yet I served the military machine giving the same sacrifices as a contractor. Want to know why that is worse and contractors are a bigger target than a SOLDIER? Because as a contractor, you are not allowed to carry a weapon and use it. If you do, its a breach of the United Nations Regulations of WAR! Only a SOLDIER can fight, a contractor can be tried by an Iraqi Government for an International Act of Terrorism if he uses a weapon against an Insurgent.

So... what other interesting quote or internet fact are you going to share? The truth is that the people there are more free than they have ever been. Women are free from oppression and can live a life without fear of a man beating here for showing her face. Women can think for themselves and not have to share their bodies with any man their husbands tell them to be with. Slavery in the Middle East is becoming a thing of the past. This is not just a war against terror as it is a war against inhumanity.

Stop fighting the commercial liberal cause and truly look deeper into what is happening over there. Its not all the bad crap you read... it take real investigation skills to find the good because lets face it, war is unpopular and it doesn't sell a book, let alone a magazine article or an election.

I'm done with this argument... I'm going riding!

[TxBritt08R1]

Ok... enough. I've been lurking on this subject because I just love how some people can sit behind their computers and spout out numbers, opinions and media facts about the war in the sandbox. Have you been there yet? Have you even been to the airport to welcome home a SOLDIER? Have you spent one minute looking into their eyes just days after they have returned home...?

If you answer NO to any of these... please enjoy your opinion and please, visit your local recruiter so you can learn first hand how we are truly making a difference to millions of people across the world. I was there. I worked for Lockheed Martin and spent 6 months cleaning sand out of places you dare not to ask. I ate crappy food and dreamed of care packages from anywhere other than GSA/AEFES!

The media in the United States is SO biased its truly a crime! In Iraq, the civilians flock to the US armed forces vehicles demonstrating their adoration for removing the tyranny from their land. Its not an easy task and there is not one SOLDIER who doesn't flinch when a small child with loose clothing walks up to your vehicle because you just aren't sure if he will push a button and blow you to hell! Walk a day or even an hour in those boots... then stand on your box and yell loud... I will listen then!

Do you want this war on our shores? Do you want the NUMBER 2 target in America, to have the fighting here? You people complain about Katrina refugees stealing your stuff... What will you do when the war is on OUR Gulf Coast bombing the chemical plants and refinery pipeline to the entire NATION! Just in case you forgot... when Katrina and Rita came through... the East coast had NO fuel reserves ready to go. The pipeline for Natural Gas was blown and the prices went out of control as the supplies went away. What do you think will happen should such Terroristic chaos happen here?

Believe me... there is nothing safe about our airports. There is nothing safe about our highways. Any dedicated freak who thinks he has a cause can march across our borders, our shores and our land undetected! Its because the lowest common grade of beandip intelligence is manning the gates at our airports and streets. When was the last time you flew on an airline and saw some TSA employee that IMPRESSED you as intelligent!?!?!

These people are fanatical and you are arguing numbers... Hello? Does anyone remember the deaths in Bosnia too? Maybe over the past 20 years that Saddam has been busy, we were looking in other areas too... do those numbers count for deaths as well? I will happily give my life in Iraq or anywhere else, just so my daughter can sleep at night here in the United States!

If we leave there... wherever THERE is... the fight WILL come to our shores. Then what will you be saying? Oh... right, maybe that you should have supported Bush and being in Iraq cause you remember the days, wait... YEARS that the fighting was on someone else's land, far from here!


+A BILLION

Our soldiers of whom I support and pray for, signed up to defend our country with their very lives if necessary. They signed on to take the fight to them, to fight the terrorists in their backyard, in order to keep the fighting off of our shores.

You're so wrapped up in why this, and that, and numbers, and politics that you can't see the big picture. Imagine one person in baybrook mall with a bomb suit on. Or in a refinery. Or at the ground floor of a highrise apartment building in downtown, or in minutemaid park.

Our boys are doing their jobs by keeping the enemy occupied, well away from our country so that the examples I listed above do not happen. I support them in this, and wish I had the courage to do the same.

Pray for the men who are doing their jobs for us.

Britt

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

You obviously have your opinion set in the Liberal Stone...

LMAO:laughing6 Anyone that actually knows me knows how hilarious this statement is. Far from a liberal, I am a realist.

You are biasing your info on Government reports, media links and undocumented hearsay. You were TOLD A STORY about a prosecutor who made SIX figures before we came and straightened out the under-the-table regime and made the man legit. Shocker he has to do it the LEGAL way now or suffer. I'm shocked you cannot see through the blinding light enough to understand how the system truly works.

How in the hell am I biasing my information when I am telling you where to go and get it to read for yourself? Where's the undocumented hearsay in anything I was said other than the story of the Iraqi who went from successful white collar Iraqi to guy on corner selling apples. That story was to give perspective, it was not a tool in my argument. I base my arguments on my own research, not what I hear from others-particularly conservative/liberal media. Saddam may have been corrupt but to say that the individual I had spoke of was corrupt as well leads me to believe you are ill-informed and quite frankly, foolish in your judgements. People have to make a living within the system they are conceived.

Did you NOT see the movie, GOOD MORNING VIETNAM? ALL military information is fed through a censoring system that gives not ONLY the public, but the military information it sees fit. Another movie that shows true censorship... FULL METAL JACKET.

I work in the 4th Infantry Division Public Affairs Office, I'm quite aware of the Army's censorship dealings. I've seen both movies by the way. Your point is however, lacking. :eh:

I am only quoting movies here since you've admitted that you have NO ACTUAL EXPERIENCE in any of the ARMED FORCES... wanna know a shocker...? Neither have I, yet I served the military machine giving the same sacrifices as a contractor. Want to know why that is worse and contractors are a bigger target than a SOLDIER? Because as a contractor, you are not allowed to carry a weapon and use it. If you do, its a breach of the United Nations Regulations of WAR! Only a SOLDIER can fight, a contractor can be tried by an Iraqi Government for an International Act of Terrorism if he uses a weapon against an Insurgent.

Fallacy, who do you think acts as Security for delegates traveling around in Baghdad? Soldiers? Wrong, contractors! So your lil rant, in that respect, has proven itself invalid :icon_thum Sure I have not served in the Armed Forces, but I've worked with enough of them and spoken to enough of them to have a sense of what they feel is going on in Iraq. I won't have a pissing contest as to who is more credible because for all I know, you could be lying through your teeth about your experiences and you alledged first hand knowledge about Iraq. Hell even based on what you've said, you've only seen PART of Iraq. I highly doubt you've surveyed the entire country, done any kind of comprehensive analysis or taken any serious considerations as to the conditions the civilian population in that country are currently experiencing.

So... what other interesting quote or internet fact are you going to share? The truth is that the people there are more free than they have ever been. Women are free from oppression and can live a life without fear of a man beating here for showing her face. Women can think for themselves and not have to share their bodies with any man their husbands tell them to be with. Slavery in the Middle East is becoming a thing of the past. This is not just a war against terror as it is a war against inhumanity.

:laughing6 People are more free than they have been? Are you fcukin' serious? Do you realize that while there is a guise of something like freedom, the civilian population is STILL being tormented, tortured and ruled by the new and improved leadership in individual neighborhoods in Iraq? Guess who rules these areas, leaders of insurgent groups. You have the choice of either heeding what it is the insurgents want you to do or having your family go through horrible atrocities. You are an idiot to believe Iraqis are either truly happier or free now that we have removed Saddam. Some may be, but the majority I am more tha sure are NOT. Rather than bloviating and projecting your opinions on this board, why don't you present some solid, factual, credible analysis. Let your sources speak more loudly than your inadequate brain and its opinions.

Stop fighting the commercial liberal cause and truly look deeper into what is happening over there. Its not all the bad crap you read... it take real investigation skills to find the good because lets face it, war is unpopular and it doesn't sell a book, let alone a magazine article or an election.

It would seem that you are one in need of looking introspectively when attempting to offer any guidance. Stop fighting the hawkish cause. You have no ground to stand on. If both Gen. Petraeus and Sec. Gates have candidly admitted the severity and direness of the situation in Iraq, then you are in urgent need of a reality check. Being that your pay grade is likely not as high as theirs, I will base any conclusions, with regard to Iraq, on what they have to say. You are merely a highly uninformed source of invalid, unfounded information who attempts at every turn to get others to see through your rose-colored glasses. I've said before, the ad hominem attacks are very unbecoming, it is not as if they get better with time so you should try focusing on attacking what I have said rather than me or my character. Such a strategy as the one you are using speaks to your lack of any empirical evidence in support of your assertions.

The situation in Iraq is, in sum, exceedingly complex and very tough. Success will take continued commitment, perseverance and sacrifice, all to make possible an opportunity for the all-important Iraqi political actions that are the key to long-term solutions to Iraq's many problems. Because we are operating in new areas and challenging elements in those areas, this effort may get harder before it gets easier.

Success, in the end, will depend on Iraqi actions. As I noted during my confirmation hearing, military action is necessary but not sufficient. We can provide the Iraqis an opportunity, but they will have to exploit it.

Interesting statement.

I'm done with this argument... I'm going riding!

No DO come back...if you feel so strongly, defend your remarks with more than the simple minded bOolshyt you've offered thus far.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

+A BILLION

Our soldiers of whom I support and pray for, signed up to defend our country with their very lives if necessary. They signed on to take the fight to them, to fight the terrorists in their backyard, in order to keep the fighting off of our shores.

You're so wrapped up in why this, and that, and numbers, and politics that you can't see the big picture. Imagine one person in baybrook mall with a bomb suit on. Or in a refinery. Or at the ground floor of a highrise apartment building in downtown, or in minutemaid park.

Our boys are doing their jobs by keeping the enemy occupied, well away from our country so that the examples I listed above do not happen. I support them in this, and wish I had the courage to do the same.

Pray for the men who are doing their jobs for us.

Britt

Britt,
I like you, your a cool dude, but you as well as this other cat are turning the argument from the dickheaded ness of having gone to Iraq in the first place to a support the troops/war in Iraq argument. No one that I associate with is AGAINST the troops. But it is of high importance, for future purposes to not allow ourselves to be sucked into something we have not the resources nor the need to urgently address. Iraq was a problem, but not one which warranted our immediate attention. Terrorism...warranted, and continues to warrant our immediate attention. If we know not history, we know not our future. This is why this discussion is so important. If we need a theatre to conduct the war on terrors, Afghanistan was already in play, why go elsewhere is what I am saying!?! Why start a war and bring war to someones doorstep that had nothing to do with this war. Lets not clump terrorists and Saddam's regime together, this has been discredited wholly by many different forms of credible documentation. The soldiers are doing a great job, always will, they're American. But their leadership is more than flawed and seemingly slightly misguided. There were better ways of doing what we did and I just want lessons to be learned. I do not agree with the Dem's that we should leave because as I have said before, I am of the mind that since we broke it-Iraq- we must fix it.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Anybody else notice the fcuker hadn't even actually addressed anything specifically from what I had wrote? He obviously hadn't actually read it...:angry7:

[Moody]

Anybody else tired of seeing the same old arguments with the same useless information?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Anybody else tired of seeing the same old arguments with the same useless information?

Anybody else tired of seeing folks complaining about shyt that can be resolved by simply NOT clicking the thread? :angry7:

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Anybody else tired of seeing the same old arguments with the same useless information?

Besides, why would the arguments change if the information hasn't changed?

[Candy]

I'M STONGLY FOR THE TROOPS, thats why that huge phucking number that equates to 0+3463=3463, started this thread and pisses me off to no avail.

The ignorance that some of u have been obligated to take part in, was born from this censorship Tango1300 speaks of..."war on our shores"...."people are more free'er".. Yeah more free to get blown up at their local market than they ever have been, and BTW we are not fighting inhumanity we are causing it, since our occupation is what the primary cause for the inhumanity now is. Of course Saddam played his part, but that wasnt our mission in the 1st place, TERRORISM WAS, and unfortunately our misuse of the troops to phucking multitask, got Saddam outta power, but stirred up a $h!tstorm for us to only BLEED OUR WAY OUT OF, and the loss of our troops for any reason OTHER THAN TO DEFEND OUR COUNTRY, IS THE MOST INHUMANE OF THEM ALL.

Nightline just interviewed the TROOPS on Memorial Day and for the most part, THEY WANT AND NEED TO COME HOME. U hear it in their voices, u see it in their eyes, but they are still willing to SHOW THEIR PRIDE FOR THEIR COUNTRY AND DO THEY'RE JOB Whether they agree with it or not, that's a true sacrifice. U say numbers don't matter 3463 is far too many for us to lose for a lost cause.

Hey Britt, if the troops are offshores guess what they ARE NOT here to protect us from a$$holes that wanna blow us up in Almeda Mall!!! Furthermore, as thin stretch as the military is right now, if we were attacked again and PLANNED to partake in an avengence attack on the responsible parties, guess what we are so caught up in the sh!tstorm of Iraq the operation will fail immediately, and THAT"S OUR DEFENSE we talking about.

3,463 for a failed/undisclosed cause that has really nothing to do with DEFENDING our country is way to many and doesn't support our troops at all, it's a misuse of them and that is irresponsible on our governments part.

[Moody]

Anybody else tired of seeing folks complaining about shyt that can be resolved by simply NOT clicking the thread? :angry7:
Last time I checked I have to click on threads to preview them if I am going to be a moderator. Thanks for your vote of confidence! :icon_thum

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Last time I checked I have to click on threads to preview them if I am going to be a moderator. Thanks for your vote of confidence! :icon_thum

Then as a moderator, you accept the possibility of seeing the same ol arguments with the same useless information from time to time. Quit complainin :icon_thum

[Moody]

Then as a moderator, you accept the possibility of seeing the same ol arguments with the same useless information from time to time. Quit complainin :icon_thum
I don't get paid so I have to complain. :laughing6

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

I don't get paid so I have to complain. :laughing6

:keke: ...or you can resign your post :eh:

[Moody]

:keke: ...or you can resign your post :eh:
To much fun! :icon_thum

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

To much fun! :icon_thum

:icon_bigg I bet...

[Tango1300]

Well... mighty interesting.

I'm enjoying my crawfish & iced tea lunch. THE RIDE HAS BEEN GOOD SO FAR.

I see there is no topping your media resources for information. But, before I go... again... you contradict yourself. Go re-read your posts, do some of that great investigation and lets see if you can admit it.

I will just admit to having my own opinion based on my experiences, not what I've been told or read.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Well... mighty interesting.

I'm enjoying my crawfish & iced tea lunch. THE RIDE HAS BEEN GOOD SO FAR.

I see there is no topping your media resources for information. But, before I go... again... you contradict yourself. Go re-read your posts, do some of that great investigation and lets see if you can admit it.

I will just admit to having my own opinion based on my experiences, not what I've been told or read.

Funny the media sources you speak of are www.whitehouse.gov, www.senate.gov, www.defenselink.mil blah-ze-blah...try to keep your content challenged arguments to a minimum...:icon_thum

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Well... mighty interesting.

I'm enjoying my crawfish & iced tea lunch. THE RIDE HAS BEEN GOOD SO FAR.

I see there is no topping your media resources for information. But, before I go... again... you contradict yourself. Go re-read your posts, do some of that great investigation and lets see if you can admit it.

I will just admit to having my own opinion based on my experiences, not what I've been told or read.

GREAT RESPONSE btw!!! Very profound!:icon_thum

Can you point out the contradiction? if there were one...

[paniro187]

since we are discussing the death toll in Iraq, I feel it is just for me to add...

As some of you may remember, I have a close friend in Baghdad whose Humvee was hit by an IED a few days ago. He made it out ok though (concussion and minor wounds) however the other humvee that came to their rescue was hit by an IED as well killing 2 of our troops. They are a little shook up, but nonetheless are still fighting. I'm not personally big on the prayer thing, but if it helps and you could find the time...well, ya know.

also, I don't think anyone agrees 100% with WHY we went there. (nor does it matter now) it's all about how we fix it. Kind of like when you scratch someone's car that you had no business driving. It doesn't matter why you drove it now, it's how are we going to fix this before we have to buy it.
this drivel is exactly what the bush bots want to just forget the **** ups. I wonder why it doens't matter why we went anymore???:gesture:

[Rick H.I.C.]

YAAAAAWWWWWNNN!!!! SOS / SOA talk about blah blah blah.
Wish people could think of how the future would be without us sticking our necks out when other wussie bashers won't. Think past your own insignificant lives and think towards future ones, should you choose to procreate or not.
P.S. won't be back for argument.:hello: TOO stressed and busy for garbage:happy3: every minute.

[Crystalline]

this drivel is exactly what the bush bots want to just forget the **** ups. I wonder why it doens't matter why we went anymore???:gesture:


I get what your saying, and this is the ONLY thing I am saying in this thread because of the fact that this thread is repeated OVEr and over again..:keke:

I think Jus10 is reasonable on what he said about "nor does it matter anymore" because he is emphasizing on the fact that the key issue is to finish what we've done and then when all this is over with (whenever the **** that's going to be), then we can criticize all the "Bush Bots".

[paniro187]

YAAAAAWWWWWNNN!!!! SOS / SOA talk about blah blah blah.
Wish people could think of how the future would be without us sticking our necks out when other wussie bashers won't. Think past your own insignificant lives and think towards future ones, should you choose to procreate or not.
P.S. won't be back for argument.:hello: TOO stressed and busy for garbage:happy3: every minute.
it's not a argument/debate if you're as close minded as yourself. so good riddance.

[paniro187]

YAAAAAWWWWWNNN!!!! SOS / SOA talk about blah blah blah.
Wish people could think of how the future would be without us sticking our necks out when other wussie bashers won't. Think past your own insignificant lives and think towards future ones, should you choose to procreate or not.
P.S. won't be back for argument.:hello: TOO stressed and busy for garbage:happy3: every minute.
what did i raq have to do with security again. i'm still missing that.

[tcmatt]

RIP TO MY BOY MIKE THAT JUST PASSED AWAY IN IRAQ from a i.e.d, you may have seen it on the news about 2 days ago...RIP
http://www.myspace.com/jmoney_turbo <HIS MYSPACE|>