Officers outgunned on US Border

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Officers outgunned on US Border

Violence along the U.S.-Mexico border is undergoing what U.S. law-enforcement authorities call "an unprecedented surge," some of it fueled by weapons and ammunition purchased or stolen in the United States.

Federal, state and local law-enforcement officials from Texas to California, concerned about the impact of illegally imported weapons into Mexico, say they already are outmanned and outgunned by ruthless gangs that collect millions of dollars in profits by smuggling aliens and drugs into this country.

"These gangs have the weapons and the will to protect their lucrative cargoes," said Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr., the sheriff of Zapata County, Texas, who founded and served as the first president of the Texas Border Sheriff's Coalition. "With automatic weapons, grenades and grenade launchers, they pose a significant danger."

Last month, Mexican military officials in Matamoros, just south of Brownsville, Texas, stopped a tractor-trailer containing weapons and ammunition, along with a pickup truck fitted with armor and bulletproof glass.

The weapons included 18 M-16 assault rifles, one equipped with an M-203
40mm grenade launcher. Also seized were several M-4 carbines, 17 handguns of various calibers, 200 magazines for different weapons, 8,000 rounds of ammunition, assault vests and other military accessories.

While Mexican authorities have not determined the source of the weapons, the truck was registered in Texas and authorities think the weapons were being smuggled across the border from the United States. U.S. and Mexican law-enforcement authorities have long described Matamoros as a key shipping center for drugs, weapons and illegal aliens.

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) also ended a 20-month investigation last month into a Mexican drug-trafficking organization and its U.S.-based distribution cells, which resulted in the arrest of 400 persons nationwide and the seizure of $45 million in cash and 100 weapons.

Operation Imperial Emperor targeted the Victor Emilio Cazares-Gastellum drug cartel, which supplied multiton quantities of cocaine, methamphetamine and marijuana monthly to distribution cells throughout the United States.

A task force led by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) also
seized two completed improvised explosive devices, materials for making 33 more, 300 primers, 1,280 rounds of ammunition, five grenades, nine pipes with end caps, 26 grenade triggers, 31 grenade spoons, 40 grenade pins, 19 black powder casings, a silencer and cash during raids in Laredo, Texas, last month.

"Keeping explosives and other high-powered weaponry out of the hands of violent criminal organizations is a central focus of the new Border Enforcement Security Task Force in Laredo," said Homeland Security Assistant Secretary Julie L. Myers, who heads ICE. "ICE is working day and night with its task force partners to stem the tide of violence that has been ravaging border communities in south Texas."

Task force members in Laredo have seized more than three dozen assault rifles bound for Mexico in the past year, along with kits to modify them for automatic fire. In Arizona, more than two dozen assault weapons have been seized in the past year.

Mexican President Felipe Calderon sent 3,300 military troops to the region after taking office in December. The troops have focused, in part, on the border towns of Nuevo Laredo and Matamoros, where hundreds of killings have been attributed to brutal turf battles between rival gangs.

Story continued (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070309-124712-9875r_page2.htm)

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

"These gangs have the weapons and the will to protect their lucrative cargoes," said Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr., the sheriff of Zapata County, Texas, who founded and served as the first president of the Texas Border Sheriff's Coalition. "With automatic weapons, grenades and grenade launchers, they pose a significant danger."...Last month, Mexican military officials in Matamoros, just south of Brownsville, Texas, stopped a tractor-trailer containing weapons and ammunition, along with a pickup truck fitted with armor and bulletproof glass....The weapons included 18 M-16 assault rifles, one equipped with an M-203 40mm grenade launcher. Also seized were several M-4 carbines, 17 handguns of various calibers, 200 magazines for different weapons, 8,000 rounds of ammunition, assault vests and other military accessories....A task force...also seized two completed improvised explosive devices, materials for making 33 more, 300 primers, 1,280 rounds of ammunition, five grenades, nine pipes with end caps, 26 grenade triggers, 31 grenade spoons, 40 grenade pins, 19 black powder casings, a silencer and cash during raids in Laredo, Texas, last month


WTF?...next thing you know we will have IED attacks on the Border Patrol...there will be a full scale war down south and we here in texas have front row seats. Yeah thanks Bush and other politicians Republican and Democratic alike (especially Dems because they blocked legislation on the border). We need to militarize the border, if we don't...try to imagine an Iraqi-esq southern Texas :icon_thum

[MadseasoN]

I always said that we should have the military enforcing border control.

That's until I found out about the Posse Comitatus Act which says that military cannot enforce US laws except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress. As usual, we are our own worst enemy.

[AliceInChains02]

Decriminalize and Legalize.
It affects everyone, don't let yourself remain ignorant on the truth of this issue, which is that the root of the problem is not the demand, it's not the supply, it's the government's irrational stance on drug policy that creates the supply and brings all of this trouble on itself.
I don't think I'd like legalizing some drugs like cocaine, meth, or heroin, but I think if there were clinics opened like they do in some countries, that would cut off the demand and hence the supply of drugs, and hence the crime that comes with it. And also better rehabilitation procedures, including psychedelic psychotherapy, but of course, as long as people are blind to the issues none of this will ever happen.
/hippie-rant

[notstock22]

^^ya but with those kind of weapons i think we should have our troops posted on the mexican american boarder, plus i mean i am almost sure most of the troops would rather be here in texas guarding a boarder than over in iraq ya know, i saw pull our troops and puts some on the boarder, at least they can be with their family here in the US

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Decriminalize and Legalize.
It affects everyone, don't let yourself remain ignorant on the truth of this issue, which is that the root of the problem is not the demand, it's not the supply, it's the government's irrational stance on drug policy that creates the supply and brings all of this trouble on itself.
I don't think I'd like legalizing some drugs like cocaine, meth, or heroin, but I think if there were clinics opened like they do in some countries, that would cut off the demand and hence the supply of drugs, and hence the crime that comes with it. And also better rehabilitation procedures, including psychedelic psychotherapy, but of course, as long as people are blind to the issues none of this will ever happen.
/hippie-rant

:keke: ...hippie rant indeed. Legalize it and what, the drug traffickers will just throw in their claim to fame. Hell no, they really start attacking the government and competition is merely increased rather than abolished.

[therky42]

^^ya but with those kind of weapons i think we should have our troops posted on the mexican american boarder, plus i mean i am almost sure most of the troops would rather be here in texas guarding a boarder than over in iraq ya know, i saw pull our troops and puts some on the boarder, at least they can be with their family here in the US

Wouldnt make much Difference since they would just reword USE OF FORCE so we (the US military) could not kill these fuggers! And truthfully parts of Iraq aint so bad for the extra 2100 a month I would be getting there vs on the US border.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

^^ya but with those kind of weapons i think we should have our troops posted on the mexican american boarder, plus i mean i am almost sure most of the troops would rather be here in texas guarding a boarder than over in iraq ya know, i saw pull our troops and puts some on the boarder, at least they can be with their family here in the US

+Eventy Billion:notworthy

Exactly, if Congress cannot officially call it a war on our sovereignty as a nation by outside paramilitary forces then we are in for a world of hurt in the coming years. It's not as if these guys are packing Pee shooters

[therky42]

I always said that we should have the military enforcing border control.
That's until I found out about the Posse Comitatus Act which says that military cannot enforce US laws except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress. As usual, we are our own worst enemy.

Why not just train the Border Patrol More like the US Military? If they were treated with different law than a Law Enforcement agency and more in Between the "Police" and the Military they might be able to do more. But with lack of Funds I dont think anything will change anytime soon.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Wouldnt make much Difference since they would just reword USE OF FORCE so we (the US military) could not kill these fuggers! And truthfully parts of Iraq aint so bad for the extra 2100 a month I would be getting there vs on the US border.

Nah I would hope what has gone on in Iraq for the last few years and the problems we've had with our Rules of Engagement that we would be a little more realistic as to what dictates merit for a use of force. Robert Gates has already addressed this and things are slowly changing....

[notstock22]

well i guess i will just have to get a sniper gun just in case it makes its way up this far lol:hello:

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Why not just train the Border Patrol More like the US Military? If they were treated with different law than a Law Enforcement agency and more in Between the "Police" and the Military they might be able to do more. But with lack of Funds I dont think anything will change anytime soon.

I was thinking that as well, since they're there already...why not? Thewy are our first line of land defense anyway and technically aren't considered military, why not give them the weapons and technology necessary...?:nod:

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

well i guess i will just have to get a sniper gun just in case it makes its way up this far lol:hello:

:nod: Looking for an m40 as well


But I dream of an m82 :icon_bigg

[AliceInChains02]

:keke: ...hippie rant indeed. Legalize it and what, the drug traffickers will just throw in their claim to fame. Hell no, they really start attacking the government and competition is merely increased rather than abolished.

What? I think the drug cartels would dissolve...what do you base this on? Plenty of countries have liberalized their drug policies and experienced positive results.

[therky42]

Nah I would hope what has gone on in Iraq for the last few years and the problems we've had with our Rules of Engagement that we would be a little more realistic as to what dictates merit for a use of force. Robert Gates has already addressed this and things are slowly changing....
Well while I was in Iraq it was pretty rediculous, after every Use of Force incident an investigation went on. The Rules are good just nobody wants to be the Bad guy.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

What? I think the drug cartels would dissolve...what do you base this on? Plenty of countries have liberalized their drug policies and experienced positive results.

So lets say you were a cartel leader and some entity depleted your ability to make money, what do you do? Throw in the towel and cut your losses? Doubtful...:eh:

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Well while I was in Iraq it was pretty rediculous, after every Use of Force incident an investigation went on. The Rules are good just nobody wants to be the Bad guy.

Yea I have alot of military friends and they have always said the Rules sucked and handicapped alot of solders from protecting themselves. Personally though, I'd rather ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. I just hope they start thinking about the soldiers rather than what seem to be politically motivated purposes.

[AliceInChains02]

So lets say you were a cartel leader and some entity depleted your ability to make money, what do you do? Throw in the towel and cut your losses? Doubtful...:eh:
Conjecture! :P j/k, but no. let's look at this rationally. I think our govt could handle a few loosely organized(compared to US Govt)cartels, or whoever else. They would get pissed, yes, but look at the Terrorists. Look how many people already hate america, and have they brought us down? They got 2 buildings, but that's not much relatively speaking.

Check out this link if you want to read a little about effective drug policy, since it is directly involved with the problems you're addressing in this thread.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/drugpolicyby/westerneurop/thenetherlan/

[jus10]

Why not just train the Border Patrol More like the US Military? If they were treated with different law than a Law Enforcement agency and more in Between the "Police" and the Military they might be able to do more. But with lack of Funds I dont think anything will change anytime soon.


Oh no...shit's gonna change, hell it is right now.....it's just not in OUR favor. If you guys no speak spanish now....ya might want to learn quickly!! Viva Amexico!!....(like what I did there?)

[AliceInChains02]

Also, I don't think drug cartels would be upset to the point of taking on the govt. due to the fact there's still plenty of other countries with strict drug laws that support their market.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Conjecture! :P j/k, but no. let's look at this rationally. I think our govt could handle a few loosely organized(compared to US Govt)cartels, or whoever else. They would get pissed, yes, but look at the Terrorists. Look how many people already hate america, and have they brought us down? They got 2 buildings, but that's not much relatively speaking.

Check out this link if you want to read a little about effective drug policy, since it is directly involved with the problems you're addressing in this thread.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/drugpolicyby/westerneurop/thenetherlan/

:laughing6 Conjecture. I would tend to agree that America is capable of handling anything presented before it but considering our leadership and also considering the various security weaknesses we have here in the US (Hell we can't even protect against breaches of our borders), it is only a matter of time before it happens again. Besides, people have become complacent, they've forgotten about 9/11. Seriously though, if you look into it we have so many vulnerabilities here in US but our politicians only do enough to make the majority happy in order to stay in office rather tahn doing what is actually better for the good of the country.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Also, I don't think drug cartels would be upset to the point of taking on the govt. due to the fact there's still plenty of other countries with strict drug laws that support their market.

True but the US is its biggest buyer, besides, they are already taking on the government. Or atleast gearing up to do so. Militarized vehicles, weaponry and other cargo, I'd say they are quite prepared and are continually preparing to attempt to take on the government. Perhaps not in the sense of a traditional war but definately in the guerilla style, look how effective the terrorists in Afghanistan are. This is easily accomplishable here on the US border. Few IED's here and there to blow up a few Border Patrolmen and your set...

[AliceInChains02]

True but the US is its biggest buyer, besides, they are already taking on the government. Or atleast gearing up to do so. Militarized vehicles, weaponry and other cargo, I'd say they are quite prepared and are continually preparing to attempt to take on the government. Perhaps not in the sense of a traditional war but definately in the guerilla style, look how effective the terrorists in Afghanistan are. This is easily accomplishable here on the US border. Few IED's here and there to blow up a few Border Patrolmen and your set...

There will be nothing to fund their "war" once they run out of their drug profits. All of the corrupt politicians will stop getting their paychecks and will denounce them and they will have 2 governements fighting them and will die out

[AliceInChains02]

Also, cartels don't have the level of extremism/dedication that are found in religious terrorism- that's an unending supply of death and destruction, but drugs is all about $$$

[AliceInChains02]

Another interesting link, Comparing the dutch's drug use to our own
http://www.csdp.org/ads/dutch2.htm

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

There will be nothing to fund their "war" once they run out of their drug profits. All of the corrupt politicians will stop getting their paychecks and will denounce them and they will have 2 governements fighting them and will die out

I guess we will have to see because I have no example to base it on, but I do disagree. I think the fact that they are rich now would enable them to carry out atleast a modest affair.

[AliceInChains02]

I guess we will have to see because I have no example to base it on, but I do disagree. I think the fact that they are rich now would enable them to carry out atleast a modest affair.

I disagree. Look at Pablo, look how quickly he fell apart once Colombia gave him the shaft because he bombed that plane. Sure he got a few officials killed, did some crazy shit, but he ended up dying all alone like a common criminal(like Tony Montana, kinda)

[del240z]

Kill em all...........................let god sort em out.......

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

Kill em all...........................let god sort em out.......

:keke: ...wrong....jus wrong

[AliceInChains02]

that's the motto for soldiers who kill people for money.

[AliceInChains02]

no comment on Pablo Escobar, who was one of the strongest drug lords in the world, being brought down with relatively little destruction or warfare, as an example to base the assumption that a great war will not take place if legalization was to commence?

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

no comment on Pablo Escobar, who was one of the strongest drug lords in the world, being brought down with relatively little destruction or warfare, as an example to base the assumption that a great war will not take place if legalization was to commence?

Still researching, can't comment until I am done and can speak more intelligently on the matter. Is there some sort of problem with that?

[AliceInChains02]

Still researching, can't comment until I am done and can speak more intelligently on the matter. Is there some sort of problem with that?

No, I was just curious if you were letting it drop since you're usually pretty prompt to post some sort of reply, even if it is to delay a conclusion. I'm sorry, sir.

[CaJuNsOuLjA]

No, I was just curious if you were letting it drop since you're usually pretty prompt to post some sort of reply, even if it is to delay a conclusion. I'm sorry, sir.

noooo...never to delay a conclusion. If I am proven wrong, conclusively and undisputedly, I have no problems accepting and admitting it. :nod:


Just rarely happens is all. :keke:

[Moody]

Drugs do not have to be legalized to have an affect on trafficing. Some drugs would just need to be decriminalized but whatever. The borders are in bad shape because the elected officials like it that way. If you consider them elected anymore. Carry On!

[AliceInChains02]

it's much easier to let a convo sink away than admit someone might have a point, isn't it? :keke:

[Moody]

it's much easier to let a convo sink away than admit someone might have a point, isn't it? :keke:
I think there is a problem with people not taking in the whole picture of problems and resolutions. Border Control reform and Drug Plolicy reform could both be parts to a solution that would help out to end the violence along the southern US border and incase no one has realized the National Guard has been deployed to assist the Border Patrol but again policy limits their abilities. Maybe if we got rid of the policy makers we could actually gain some control over the issues burdening the US right now?

[AliceInChains02]

I think there is a problem with people not taking in the whole picture of problems and resolutions. Border Control reform and Drug Plolicy reform could both be parts to a solution that would help out to end the violence along the southern US border and incase no one has realized the National Guard has been deployed to assist the Border Patrol but again policy limits their abilities. Maybe if we got rid of the policy makers we could actually gain some control over the issues burdening the US right now?

where does border control come into the picture? with proper drug policy reform there would be no drugs coming in from anywhere. illegal immigration is another issue, and one i don't really care too much about. Why people feel the need to immigrate here is important to me, but the fact that they do it is not surprising, or wrong, to me, in any way.

[Moody]

where does border control come into the picture? with proper drug policy reform there would be no drugs coming in from anywhere. illegal immigration is another issue, and one i don't really care too much about. Why people feel the need to immigrate here is important to me, but the fact that they do it is not surprising, or wrong, to me, in any way.
Wow, you sure are adiment about your idea as being the truth. I would have thought you realized by now there is no single answer to any question. Otherwise you fall into the rest of the population that believes everything they see and feel to be real and continue to make poor judgements because of it. Without proper border control your drug policies would have little impact. This country is not ready to sustain it's own drug addictions.

[AliceInChains02]

Wow, you sure are adiment about your idea as being the truth. I would have thought you realized by now there is no single answer to any question. Otherwise you fall into the rest of the population that believes everything they see and feel to be real and continue to make poor judgements because of it. Without proper border control your drug policies would have little impact. This country is not ready to sustain it's own drug addictions.

excuse for me not being a little more humble. if you want to know how i feel, i don't hold much to be absolutely true, and i try to be humble, but i'm somewhat knowledged and opinionated on this topic, and my 'idea' is based on reason and logic. it's hard to live in this world if you don't accept what you see and feel as real to some degree. there's always the possibility that nothing's real, and all of that, but to be practical it's best to hold them true, i think.

and after all of that talk about humility you say just as 'adimently' that the country can't sustain it's drug addictions. what do you base this on? i think if there was participation at the corporation level drugs could be produced relatively cheap for dispensal(soft drugs) and for addiction maintenance for addicts of hard drugs. we're spending billions trying to eradicate all of the poppies in Afghanistan(who supplies about 90% of the world's heroin) when there's a huge morphine deficit in the world. that's big biz interests for you.

[Moody]

excuse for me not being a little more humble. if you want to know how i feel, i don't hold much to be absolutely true, and i try to be humble, but i'm somewhat knowledged and opinionated on this topic, and my 'idea' is based on reason and logic. it's hard to live in this world if you don't accept what you see and feel as real to some degree. there's always the possibility that nothing's real, and all of that, but to be practical it's best to hold them true, i think.

and after all of that talk about humility you say just as 'adimently' that the country can't sustain it's drug addictions. what do you base this on? i think if there was participation at the corporation level drugs could be produced relatively cheap for dispensal(soft drugs) and for addiction maintenance for addicts of hard drugs. we're spending billions trying to eradicate all of the poppies in Afghanistan(who supplies about 90% of the world's heroin) when there's a huge morphine deficit in the world. that's big biz interests for you.

So you want big corporations to continue to control even more of the drugs in the US? All they are going to do is employee illegals to grow it for them and supplement what they can't grow with sales from cartels. Sounds similar to our current situation but you empower our goverment even more. :laughing6

That was a joke but, I do not like the idea of continuing to empower the pharmacutical companies even more. They already are posioning our country enough as it is.

[AliceInChains02]

So you want big corporations to continue to control even more of the drugs in the US? All they are going to do is employee illegals to grow it for them and supplement what they can't grow with sales from cartels. Sounds similar to our current situation but you empower our goverment even more. :laughing6

That was a joke but, I do not like the idea of continuing to empower the pharmacutical companies even more. They already are posioning our country enough as it is.

Corporation corruption is another issue, relevant to this topic, but I still think it could work regardless of their profit motives. I don't like pharm. companies really either, but I think they're just like all other corporations-driven by greed, maybe they're just a little less 'controlled' in their pricing. I think empowering the pharm companies still outweighs our current drug policy and all of the harm that it does.
Do you think pharm. companies would really continue to support 'cartels'? I don't see why they wouldn't be able to grow it themselves, except for maybe cocaine which only grows in the andes at certain altitudes, i think, but could probably be grown in US if there was funding.

[Moody]

Corporation corruption is another issue, relevant to this topic, but I still think it could work regardless of their profit motives. I don't like pharm. companies really either, but I think they're just like all other corporations-driven by greed, maybe they're just a little less 'controlled' in their pricing. I think empowering the pharm companies still outweighs our current drug policy and all of the harm that it does.
Do you think pharm. companies would really continue to support 'cartels'? I don't see why they wouldn't be able to grow it themselves, except for maybe cocaine which only grows in the andes at certain altitudes, i think, but could probably be grown in US if there was funding.
My experience with any company is to produce a product for the lowest cost and sell it for the largest cost they can reasonably charge. If producing that product is to buy it then they will do it. Although this is all hyphathetical and would have to work within the bounds of the reform. This is mainly why i wanted to point out that several things would have to be reformed for it to be in the greater interest of the country. They can probably produce synthetic cocaine in labs already. This is another issue I have against pharmachutical companies taking over the reins of drug production but honestly any reform would hopefully be better then none.