Mckee & T 2-up at ECR

[Deano3090]

YouTube - McT2

[CarbonJames]

WTF is wrong you people? why would you do this? i sure hope that no one gets hurt doing one of these rides with two riders on 1 bike.

[AJFLo]

Nice vid! I hate riding 2up. I feel very unstavle haha

[cdill35]

WTF is wrong you people? why would you do this? i sure hope that no one gets hurt doing one of these rides with two riders on 1 bike.

Send them on the street to get hurt then, huh?

[less_than_coop]

Pennywise :thumb:

WTF is wrong you people? why would you do this? i sure hope that no one gets hurt doing one of these rides with two riders on 1 bike.

:gesture:

Send them on the street to get hurt then, huh? +1

[cdill35]

I think the possibility of a double up track day is thinking way ahead of the curve. It is alarming just how out of touch, with reality, some people really are. If they would get off the computer and get out and ride the streets (which is what brought us to the track in the first place, lest we forget) they would see the astonishing number of double up riders with no gear and not the first clue about how to handle a bike themselves, let alone with a passenger.

Just a month or so ago a husband and wife were killed on lime creek road, riding 2 up. They left 2 small children behind. What could have been? I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, had a double up track day been available and they participated that they might have made that corner. Not trying to rub salt in the wound, but I can't help but think that.

Ridiculing people for the style, in which they ride on the streets, does NOTHING to spread the good news about what the track can do for you.

So...what are you gonna do? Sit back, with the naysayers and talk about what a bunch of morons are out there on the streets, and how you hope they dont kill themselves, or worse yet, kill someone else??? Or are you going to be a part of the solution? Get off your ass. Spread the word. Truly help people at the grassroots levels regardless of what the out of touch, elitest mainstream thinks?

Huge props to Ridesmart if they can make this happen. And bigger props to Mckee, for improving his 2 up skills so that spending quality time, with his SO, on the bike, is a little less risky.

Sorry for the rant yall!

[Gixxer Geezer]

I thought it was pretty cool... but what do I know.. i am just an old busa poser...:rofl:

[less_than_coop]

I think the possibility of a double up track day is thinking way ahead of the curve. It is alarming just how out of touch, with reality, some people really are. If they would get off the computer and get out and ride the streets (which is what brought us to the track in the first place, lest we forget) they would see the astonishing number of double up riders with no gear and not the first clue about how to handle a bike themselves, let alone with a passenger.

Just a month or so ago a husband and wife were killed on lime creek road, riding 2 up. They left 2 small children behind. What could have been? I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, had a double up track day been available and they participated that they might have made that corner. Not trying to rub salt in the wound, but I can't help but think that.

Ridiculing people for the style, in which they ride on the streets, does NOTHING to spread the good news about what the track can do for you.

So...what are you gonna do? Sit back, with the naysayers and talk about what a bunch of morons are out there on the streets, and how you hope they dont kill themselves, or worse yet, kill someone else??? Or are you going to be a part of the solution? Get off your ass. Spread the word. Truly help people at the grassroots levels regardless of what the out of touch, elitest mainstream thinks?

Huge props to Ridesmart if they can make this happen. And bigger props to Mckee, for improving his 2 up skills so that spending quality time, with his SO, on the bike, is a little less risky.

Sorry for the rant. :D

Ive gotta agree. We hear "take it to the track" all the damn time on MH. The track is a safe, managed, well coordinated place in which to ride ones motorcycle in a more agressive manner than would be allowable or advisable on the streets. We hear rhetoric about how riding the track will improve riding skill and in turn make one a safer and more capable street rider.
Yet, here we have an example of someone using the closed course of a track to ride and practice with a passenger. Seems to me that riding with a passenger on a track is a great way to become accustomed to the changes in handling, braking, acceleration and balance that would come with riding with a passenger.
What would be the alternative? Ride the streets to get your practice with a passenger? A parking lot?
I just dont get why someone should be condemned for "taking it to the track":shrug:

Too much of a contradiction in my opinion.

[LunchBox]

I think the possibility of a double up track day is thinking way ahead of the curve. It is alarming just how out of touch, with reality, some people really are. If they would get off the computer and get out and ride the streets (which is what brought us to the track in the first place, lest we forget) they would see the astonishing number of double up riders with no gear and not the first clue about how to handle a bike themselves, let alone with a passenger.

Just a month or so ago a husband and wife were killed on lime creek road, riding 2 up. They left 2 small children behind. What could have been? I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, had a double up track day been available and they participated that they might have made that corner. Not trying to rub salt in the wound, but I can't help but think that.

Ridiculing people for the style, in which they ride on the streets, does NOTHING to spread the good news about what the track can do for you.

So...what are you gonna do? Sit back, with the naysayers and talk about what a bunch of morons are out there on the streets, and how you hope they dont kill themselves, or worse yet, kill someone else??? Or are you going to be a part of the solution? Get off your ass. Spread the word. Truly help people at the grassroots levels regardless of what the out of touch, elitest mainstream thinks?

Huge props to Ridesmart if they can make this happen. And bigger props to Mckee, for improving his 2 up skills so that spending quality time, with his SO, on the bike, is a little less risky.

Sorry for the rant yall!

+afcukingbiliion
I have to say that honestly, when I heard about this on Sunday, I thought WTF?!?!?! And then watching the video I was still wondering what the hell was everyone thinking. However CDill, after reading your post, you are 1000000% right. At first I was just thinking that everyone is starting to fcuk around at the track and what-not. However, if you ride the forest or anything like that 2-up then hell yeah, get on the track in novice and turn some frickin laps!!!!

[sbfuller]

i couldn't agree more. a 2 up trackday is a good place to learn in a more controlled environment. everything my wife knows about 2 up riding i had to teach her on the street

[cdill35]

+afcukingbiliion
I have to say that honestly, when I heard about this on Sunday, I thought WTF?!?!?! And then watching the video I was still wondering what the hell was everyone thinking. However CDill, after reading your post, you are 1000000% right. At first I was just thinking that everyone is starting to fcuk around at the track and what-not. However, if you ride the forest or anything like that 2-up then hell yeah, get on the track in novice and turn some frickin laps!!!!

I was the same way. At first I was like WTF! Fortunately, rather than hold contempt for something, prior to investigating, I reflected on it all and formed a more level opinion, in line with Ridesmart's mission.

Bottomline...track days, IMO, save lives. I dont think Ridesmart ever advertised themselves as an organization built around making riders, racers. Sure, you can take Ty's class, ride level 4 (open practice) and you have to start somewhere. Dave's mission has always been to save lives and help people improve their skills at a reasonable price.

And if people don't think that a double up track day helps save lives and lessen the risk of a catastrophe, then they are seriously in need of a reality check.

I dont think every track day should be 2 up friendly, but 4 or 5 of the 35 some odd dates, is a very good start.

[smokinjoe]

I think the possibility of a double up track day is thinking way ahead of the curve. It is alarming just how out of touch, with reality, some people really are. If they would get off the computer and get out and ride the streets (which is what brought us to the track in the first place, lest we forget) they would see the astonishing number of double up riders with no gear and not the first clue about how to handle a bike themselves, let alone with a passenger.

Just a month or so ago a husband and wife were killed on lime creek road, riding 2 up. They left 2 small children behind. What could have been? I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, had a double up track day been available and they participated that they might have made that corner. Not trying to rub salt in the wound, but I can't help but think that.

Ridiculing people for the style, in which they ride on the streets, does NOTHING to spread the good news about what the track can do for you.

So...what are you gonna do? Sit back, with the naysayers and talk about what a bunch of morons are out there on the streets, and how you hope they dont kill themselves, or worse yet, kill someone else??? Or are you going to be a part of the solution? Get off your ass. Spread the word. Truly help people at the grassroots levels regardless of what the out of touch, elitest mainstream thinks?

Huge props to Ridesmart if they can make this happen. And bigger props to Mckee, for improving his 2 up skills so that spending quality time, with his SO, on the bike, is a little less risky.

Sorry for the rant yall!

learning more on how to ride and being safe about it is what getting on the track is all about ,,, if you ride two up on the streets why not let one(or 2) improve their skills within a closed course environment to make it safer for both of them?

I was at cresson last year with ridesmart and there was a couple riding two up in level two and i must say i was impressed by their skills

nice vid btw :thumb:

[lilmckee]

WTF is wrong you people? why would you do this? i sure hope that no one gets hurt doing one of these rides with two riders on 1 bike.

Sir, there would be many, many restrictions on those who would be allowed to do this.

There will always be 2up riders on the street. And many don't know to slow it down. Why not give them some knowledge to understand how 2 up changes the dynamics of the bike. So that way they can understand WHY they need to keep the speeds down, and the control up.

This program is going to take time, and we hope to make the safest environment possible.

[lilmckee]

I think the possibility of a double up track day is thinking way ahead of the curve. It is alarming just how out of touch, with reality, some people really are. If they would get off the computer and get out and ride the streets (which is what brought us to the track in the first place, lest we forget) they would see the astonishing number of double up riders with no gear and not the first clue about how to handle a bike themselves, let alone with a passenger.

Just a month or so ago a husband and wife were killed on lime creek road, riding 2 up. They left 2 small children behind. What could have been? I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, had a double up track day been available and they participated that they might have made that corner. Not trying to rub salt in the wound, but I can't help but think that.

Ridiculing people for the style, in which they ride on the streets, does NOTHING to spread the good news about what the track can do for you.

So...what are you gonna do? Sit back, with the naysayers and talk about what a bunch of morons are out there on the streets, and how you hope they dont kill themselves, or worse yet, kill someone else??? Or are you going to be a part of the solution? Get off your ass. Spread the word. Truly help people at the grassroots levels regardless of what the out of touch, elitest mainstream thinks?

Huge props to Ridesmart if they can make this happen. And bigger props to Mckee, for improving his 2 up skills so that spending quality time, with his SO, on the bike, is a little less risky.

Sorry for the rant yall!

Thank you sir, and thanks for controlling our speeds out there.

Hope we can develop this into a safe, instructional, program.

[less_than_coop]

Thank you sir, and thanks for controlling our speeds out there.

Hope we can develop this into a safe, instructional, program.

As far as sticking to a mission of improving rider safety and survivability, I think this has the making of being a great thing to offer. EDUCATION!
Good for you, dude! :thumb:

[JRxGRUBZx]

WTF who does this ?!?!!? this is insane !!! mckee how dare you!!!! lol

[lilmckee]

As far as sticking to a mission of improving rider safety and survivability, I think this has the making of being a great thing to offer. EDUCATION!
Good for you, dude! :thumb:

thanks, if you, or anyone else, have any suggestions for restrictions, things that should be worked on, please contact cdill, me, or zimmer!


thanks everyone

[lilmckee]

WTF who does this ?!?!!? this is insane !!! mckee how dare you!!!! lol

yeah, man, how dare we!


dont worry buddy i know your dying to ride, ill let you ride bitch for a session :D

[JRxGRUBZx]

yeah, man, how dare we!


dont worry buddy i know your dying to ride, ill let you ride bitch for a session :D

:shrug: i just just got my bike :D

[cdill35]

thanks, if you, or anyone else, have any suggestions for restrictions, things that should be worked on, please contact cdill, me, or zimmer!


thanks everyone

Actually my input on this will be minimal as my experience is limited.

I am sure Ridesmart will chime in on the logistics of it all

[tomLSTD]

Not to argue, but Ridesmart is certainly not a "pioneer" here. Our Lead Instructor at LSTD has been doing this for quite some time and he certainly isn't a "pioneer" either; just check out Pridmore's Star School (among others) and he's been doing this for a long while.

Personally I agree that two-up is not a good idea; however, two up with gear on a closed course with an ambulance standing by is a ton more safe than on the streets.

I guess my point of contention is that it is inherently more dangerous riding two up due to the unpredictabilty of the passenger and the difference in weight transfer. My take is, "more power to ya" if you want to ride it that way. I wouldn't recommend it personally, and I've only done two up on track during lunch breaks and at really slow speeds, but if you want to risk it go right ahead.

If yall like it, by all means, have at it. But it's a ton better to just ride your own bike rather than being a pillion.

[lilmckee]

Not to argue, but Ridesmart is certainly not a "pioneer" here. Our Lead Instructor at LSTD has been doing this for quite some time and he certainly isn't a "pioneer" either; just check out Pridmore's Star School (among others) and he's been doing this for a long while.

Personally I agree that two-up is not a good idea; however, two up with gear on a closed course with an ambulance standing by is a ton more safe than on the streets.

I guess my point of contention is that it is inherently more dangerous riding two up due to the unpredictabilty of the passenger and the difference in weight transfer. My take is, "more power to ya" if you want to ride it that way. I wouldn't recommend it personally, and I've only done two up on track during lunch breaks and at really slow speeds, but if you want to risk it go right ahead.

If yall like it, by all means, have at it. But it's a ton better to just ride your own bike rather than being a pillion.
Thanks!

[Ridesmart]

Here is a little of RideSmart logic - lol

At this point, we are merely investigating this as a possibility. We are not looking to be pioneers in this, nor do we claim we are.
This is a possibility as an option for those who do ride 2up on streets. To them, I am sure this will be a very attractive option to enhance skills.

As to logistics of all this - as I said, this is a starting point.
If you want details and updates on this topic, I invite you to read the RideSmart thread that was created.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THREAD (http://www.motohouston.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106270)

Some quick info here as well:
- this is not for everyone.
- we are shooting for a possibility of some form of curriculum for this next season, depending on many variables
- 2up riding will be restricted by certain rules and requirements, which will be aimed to protect all riders on the track.
- will be limited to very few riders per event. RideSmart is fully dedicated to ensuring that all riders have fun at the track, and have a safe environment for doing so. We will get the rules nailed down and will publish them well in advance of any official curriculum start.

Bottom line - we are just starting to look into this. Please give us the courtesy of developing this properly and effectively for all. Then make up your mind whether this is for you or not.

If you wish to provide input about this riding, there are a total of three (3) people that are available for you. They are the only ones authorized in collection of material for this possible program.
You can reach:

Thomas - curriculum related material.
Jason, Slavek - All other aspects of the possible program.

If in doubt, send your ideas to ridesmartideas@gmail.com. We will greatly appreciate that you do not create threads about this program while in development. We are already being asked why this is being put into place, and for whom.
We understand that people want to help, but in this case, the best way to do so is to let us look into it, and make the decisions that are best for the school, not for one or two individuals.

When we do have updates, we will surely announce them in the 2up sticky we created. Whichever direction we take on this, it will have to be our decision to make. Please allow us to do this work.


Your help and cooperation is greatly appreciated.

[GABRIEL]

Sounds like it could be fun, would suck to be the rider being passes by a tandum rider.

[lilmckee]

:hello:

[CarbonJames]

Pennywise :thumb:



:gesture:

+1

you sir seem to have some sort of issue with me/my wife and one day i guess maybe we'll get it straightened out, this is your second time with me, i won't tolerate your rude behavior. now do us all a favor and go :gesture: yourself.

:hello:

[CarbonJames]

Here is a little of RideSmart logic - lol

At this point, we are merely investigating this as a possibility. We are not looking to be pioneers in this, nor do we claim we are.
This is a possibility as an option for those who do ride 2up on streets. To them, I am sure this will be a very attractive option to enhance skills.

As to logistics of all this - as I said, this is a starting point.
If you want details and updates on this topic, I invite you to read the RideSmart thread that was created.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THREAD (http://www.motohouston.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106270)

Some quick info here as well:
- this is not for everyone.
- we are shooting for a possibility of some form of curriculum for this next season, depending on many variables
- 2up riding will be restricted by certain rules and requirements, which will be aimed to protect all riders on the track.
- will be limited to very few riders per event. RideSmart is fully dedicated to ensuring that all riders have fun at the track, and have a safe environment for doing so. We will get the rules nailed down and will publish them well in advance of any official curriculum start.

Bottom line - we are just starting to look into this. Please give us the courtesy of developing this properly and effectively for all. Then make up your mind whether this is for you or not.

If you wish to provide input about this riding, there are a total of three (3) people that are available for you. They are the only ones authorized in collection of material for this possible program.
You can reach:

Thomas - curriculum related material.
Jason, Slavek - All other aspects of the possible program.

If in doubt, send your ideas to ridesmartideas@gmail.com. We will greatly appreciate that you do not create threads about this program while in development. We are already being asked why this is being put into place, and for whom.
We understand that people want to help, but in this case, the best way to do so is to let us look into it, and make the decisions that are best for the school, not for one or two individuals.

When we do have updates, we will surely announce them in the 2up sticky we created. Whichever direction we take on this, it will have to be our decision to make. Please allow us to do this work.


Your help and cooperation is greatly appreciated.

good luck in your endeavors but i hope that no one who shows up to do this feels like they are Randy M. :shrug:

[cdill35]

The negativity baffles me. :-/

[zimmer]

The negativity baffles me. :-/
:shrug:We are trying to change the boys only club.

[gunshotwound]

Not to argue, but Ridesmart is certainly not a "pioneer" here. Our Lead Instructor at LSTD has been doing this for quite some time and he certainly isn't a "pioneer" either; just check out Pridmore's Star School (among others) and he's been doing this for a long while.

Personally I agree that two-up is not a good idea; however, two up with gear on a closed course with an ambulance standing by is a ton more safe than on the streets.

I guess my point of contention is that it is inherently more dangerous riding two up due to the unpredictabilty of the passenger and the difference in weight transfer. My take is, "more power to ya" if you want to ride it that way. I wouldn't recommend it personally, and I've only done two up on track during lunch breaks and at really slow speeds, but if you want to risk it go right ahead.

If yall like it, by all means, have at it. But it's a ton better to just ride your own bike rather than being a pillion.

Tom, you are the word master. :D I had to look that up, but then, I am not very smarts. :D

A pillion is a secondary pad, cushion, or seat behind the main seat or saddle on a horse, motorcycle, or moped. A passenger in this seat is said to "ride pillion" or may themselves be referred to as a "pillion." The word is derived from the Gaelic for "little rug," pillean, which is itself from the Latin pellis for "animal skin." One or more pelts would often have been the form a secondary seat took on horseback, and the usage was carried over to motorcycles.

[dbuck]

Nice...I see both points...good and bad. If there is a SAFE and effective way to make it happen...go for it. :thumb:

[dhdrider]

good luck in your endeavors but i hope that no one who shows up to do this feels like they are Randy M. :shrug:
Because no one ever shows up to an event to ride solo thinking they are Valentino R. :-/

[alrova]

Because no one ever shows up to an event to ride solo thinking they are Valentino R. :-/

taking my LSTD shirt off --
Funny how someone in your staff screen name is thenextrossi :rofl::rofl: BUT, that is just a stupid comment on my part i am not bashing you or thenextrossi that is more than likely faster and better than me.

TO the more serious stuff:

I think that if this program is used or targeted like an MSF 2up course where there are lots of requirements for the rider it could work however i think James and some folks that see this in a negative way (including myself) think of it as a very dangerous situation for your love ones and i say love ones because i hope whoever is riding 2up have their significant other or someone very close because if the worst happens there will be some serious trouble between them no matter what they state before the ride.

I think of it as do i want to take my wife on the track riding 2up - yes
Do i feel confident i can ride with her in the back - yes
THere is the possibility that i can get into an accident - yes
DO i want to endanger my love one - HELL NO, so i chose not to.

So i rather not even consider this option, BUT i barely ride on the streets so my point of view is probably on the lesser part of the Houston community.

I rather see an accident with a rossi wannabe than a mamola wannabe but i really hope to never see an accident ...

We've seen all this accidents like "name here", some other guys whose names i can't remember were some legal action or noise has been done towards those causing an accident or being in an accident or not being responsible for the outcome of the accient, can you imagine that with a third rider who is not in control of anything.

is a very thin line you guys will be walking but hey, if it works i really think is great,



and if you say with this mentality this guy will never let his love ones ride well all i can say is my 5 year old is just about starting with his 50, fearless little kid that will be tearing the track in the near future, 3 minutes instruction on how to operate throttle and brakes and he is scraping those little pegs already, not that it takes much to do but is fun watching him fly on that thing.

my 2 pesos

[cdill35]

taking my LSTD shirt off --
Funny how someone in your staff screen name is thenextrossi :rofl::rofl: BUT, that is just a stupid comment on my part i am not bashing you or thenextrossi that is more than likely faster and better than me.




That is a 16 year old child, with dreams. He is not RS staff. His father is.

[cdill35]

TO the more serious stuff:

I think that if this program is used or targeted like an MSF 2up course where there are lots of requirements for the rider it could work however i think James and some folks that see this in a negative way (including myself) think of it as a very dangerous situation for your love ones and i say love ones because i hope whoever is riding 2up have their significant other or someone very close because if the worst happens there will be some serious trouble between them no matter what they state before the ride.

I think of it as do i want to take my wife on the track riding 2up - yes
Do i feel confident i can ride with her in the back - yes
THere is the possibility that i can get into an accident - yes
DO i want to endanger my love one - HELL NO, so i chose not to.

So i rather not even consider this option, BUT i barely ride on the streets so my point of view is probably on the lesser part of the Houston community.

I rather see an accident with a rossi wannabe than a mamola wannabe but i really hope to never see an accident ...

We've seen all this accidents like "name here", some other guys whose names i can't remember were some legal action or noise has been done towards those causing an accident or being in an accident or not being responsible for the outcome of the accient, can you imagine that with a third rider who is not in control of anything.

is a very thin line you guys will be walking but hey, if it works i really think is great,



and if you say with this mentality this guy will never let his love ones ride well all i can say is my 5 year old is just about starting with his 50, fearless little kid that will be tearing the track in the near future, 3 minutes instruction on how to operate throttle and brakes and he is scraping those little pegs already, not that it takes much to do but is fun watching him fly on that thing.

my 2 pesos

Bottomline, people will continue to ride 2 up, on the streets, without skills no matter what you or I think, preach or condemn. Personally, I don't really approve of riding 2 up on the streets. I couln't live with myself if I made a mistake and harmed an innocent passenger.

However, putting my personal opinions and beliefs aside, will 2 up track days potentially save the lives of street riders that ride double up? How can anyone not answer YES?

And if it will save lives, then why not? I'll bet it does far more good, than harm. Perhaps we can just agree that LSTD (since apparently there are 3 of you i this thread now) disagrees with this... and move on. ;)

[alrova]

Bottomline, people will continue to ride 2 up, on the streets, without skills no matter what you or I think, preach or condemn. Personally, I don't really approve of riding 2 up on the streets. I couln't live with myself if I made a mistake and harmed an innocent passenger.

However, putting my personal opinions and beliefs aside, will 2 up track days potentially save the lives of street riders that ride double up? How can anyone not answer YES?

And if it will save lives, then why not? I'll bet it does far more good, than harm. Perhaps we can just agree that LSTD (since apparently there are 3 of you i this thread now) disagrees with this... and move on. ;)

Hey, i took my LSTD shirt off :thumb:

so 2 and a shirtless

[CarbonJames]

Bottomline, people will continue to ride 2 up, on the streets, without skills no matter what you or I think, preach or condemn. Personally, I don't really approve of riding 2 up on the streets. I couln't live with myself if I made a mistake and harmed an innocent passenger.

However, putting my personal opinions and beliefs aside, will 2 up track days potentially save the lives of street riders that ride double up? How can anyone not answer YES?

And if it will save lives, then why not? I'll bet it does far more good, than harm. Perhaps we can just agree that LSTD (since apparently there are 3 of you i this thread now) disagrees with this... and move on. ;)

:rofl: they are simple opinions, much like everyone else on this board. if i ever catch my kids on the back of someones bike!:banghead::banghead:

i'd just hate to see someone thinking "i/we can do it" and that not be the case. how many times have we seen or heard of one bike taking out another (regardless of who is at fault) that is 2 down, now with a 3rd person in the equation and that same incident happens, there are now 3 lives at stake.

as i said before, good luck with your program. :thumb:

dill, there will always be people who disagree with something that someone else does. each one of us have to deal with, so don't try to point your finger at "3 lstd guys" giving yet another opinion, we're not just "lstd guys" we are track day riders as well and would hate for anything bad to happen to anyone.

[CarbonJames]

Hey, i took my LSTD shirt off :thumb:

so 2 and a shirtless

and put your shirt back on, that hairy back is freaking me out :keke:

[cdill35]

dill, there will always be people who disagree with something that someone else does. each one of us have to deal with, so don't try to point your finger at "3 lstd guys" giving yet another opinion, we're not just "lstd guys" we are track day riders as well and would hate for anything bad to happen to anyone.

I understand. It's just ironic. That's all.

[AJFLo]

Bottomline, people will continue to ride 2 up, on the streets, without skills no matter what you or I think, preach or condemn. Personally, I don't really approve of riding 2 up on the streets. I couln't live with myself if I made a mistake and harmed an innocent passenger.

However, putting my personal opinions and beliefs aside, will 2 up track days potentially save the lives of street riders that ride double up? How can anyone not answer YES?

And if it will save lives, then why not? I'll bet it does far more good, than harm. Perhaps we can just agree that LSTD (since apparently there are 3 of you i this thread now) disagrees with this... and move on. ;)

:werd:

Helping riders improve there skills is the whole point of a Track Day correct???

Not everyone that goes out is trying to "beat the clock" or get into racing. Why not have a safer riding environment to learn how a bike will operate 2up at higher speeds???

[tomLSTD]

Bottomline, people will continue to ride 2 up, on the streets, without skills no matter what you or I think, preach or condemn. Personally, I don't really approve of riding 2 up on the streets. I couln't live with myself if I made a mistake and harmed an innocent passenger.

However, putting my personal opinions and beliefs aside, will 2 up track days potentially save the lives of street riders that ride double up? How can anyone not answer YES?

And if it will save lives, then why not? I'll bet it does far more good, than harm. Perhaps we can just agree that LSTD (since apparently there are 3 of you i this thread now) disagrees with this... and move on. ;)

Brandt I think you're just picking a fight here personally (based off your posts), but personally I try to stay out of telling folks what they should be doing for their own safety unless I'm asked. If yall want to do this- more power to ya (pretty sure I said that already).

As I said, this isn't some ground breaking idea here; yall aren't reinventing the wheel- it's been done before.

If yall think it's safe and it influences folks to be more safe as riders, by all means have at it, at least your heart's in the right place. Yall may get lucky and nobody gets hurt doing this or you may be not-so-lucky... I hope not the latter!

Good luck to you all, and I hope this is very successful for you :thumbsup:

[MacMan]

I thinks its ironic that you find it ironic? :-)
Two up on the track would be fine in my opinion if there were only other 2 up "teams" out there. I would shadow them with an instructor and limit speeds. Many street morons kill their passengers on a yearly basis.
I would be curious to hear what the insurance company would say about 2 up in a mixed group? We allowed it only at lunch on the track solo.

[cdill35]

Brandt I think you're just picking a fight here personally (based off your posts), but personally I try to stay out of telling folks what they should be doing for their own safety unless I'm asked. If yall want to do this- more power to ya (pretty sure I said that already).

As I said, this isn't some ground breaking idea here; yall aren't reinventing the wheel- it's been done before.

If yall think it's safe and it influences folks to be more safe as riders, by all means have at it, at least your heart's in the right place. Yall may get lucky and nobody gets hurt doing this or you may be not-so-lucky... I hope not the latter!

Good luck to you all, and I hope this is very successful for you :thumbsup:

I'm not Tom. Deano post a 2up video, in the RS section, and first post out of the chute is a site sponsor, in a competitors section, saying "WTF!! Is wrong with you people??!!"

And FWIW, I reported the post. Nothing was done.

Peace man. For real. See u guys on the 4th.

[dbuck]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Damn McKee and his ways of startin' sh*t. I'm sure Dave wouldn't line 30 people 2-up at the grid...I'm sure it would be at a much smaller scale for safety reasons....only problem with that is increasing rates to achieve the "class" and to do it safely. Surely that will detour folks.

See all of you folks in the near future. Bearable heat is on the horizon! Woot!

[Godsuki]

Good for you Scott! Riding 2 up with Brena was some of the most fun I've had on the track. It also helped her to find new braking markers and turn in points. 2 up instruction can be a very good tool.


http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d45/godsuki_/EC07051085.jpg

[lilmckee]

any one see the ridesmart1 two up vid yet?

Pretty baller.


As for safety of my passenger, I think it's less dangerous then her getting her own bike and riding the streets. And getting a bike going on the track at 10 mph and being another obstacle.

We've been riding together for a long time, cruisers, standards, bmw touring, sportbikes. We got the communication down, she knows she needs to tell me when she is uncomfortable.


With both of us on the bike we still weight less then some of you big ass mofos :keke:, So I'm not worried about running out of suspension. Not to mention, I'm slow :D. Nor do I come close to pushing my ability line.


Maybe a good idea would be to only allow 1/2 days, maybe after lunch. The rider is comfortable on the track by then, the track is hotter, etc.





Her complaints when we come back from street rides...

"THAT DRUNK ASS DUDE ALMOST HIT JAY!!!!"

"THAT STUPID $%@^@ ALMOST CLIPPPED US"

"That gravel hurt"

"That car TRIED to hit us."

"Look at those squids with no gear..."




Complaints coming off the track....

"That guy's line seemed off"

[AJFLo]

What the heck does the passenger hold onto when your traveling at those speeds???

[lilmckee]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Damn McKee and his ways of startin' sh*t. I'm sure Dave wouldn't line 30 people 2-up at the grid...I'm sure it would be at a much smaller scale for safety reasons....only problem with that is increasing rates to achieve the "class" and to do it safely. Surely that will detour folks.

See all of you folks in the near future. Bearable heat is on the horizon! Woot!

:D
I try my best.:D


I'm not involved with the planning or education. But I would assume it will be just a few riders....
Good for you Scott! Riding 2 up with Brena was some of the most fun I've had on the track. It also helped her to find new braking markers and turn in points. 2 up instruction can be a very good tool.


http://i32.photobucket.com/albumsd45/godsuki_/EC07051085.jpg
damn sir, that is some massive lean angle!


It was great fun, I don't think we have ever been closer, now that she understand why I love riding the track vs the street. (It's all she talks about :keke:)


See ya out there.

[lilmckee]

What the heck does the passenger hold onto when your traveling at those speeds???

your nuts



...so that why you know if you wreck they are coming off :angry7:

[AJFLo]

I like when women grab my nuts :rofl:

[zimmer]

McKee firing line is in order please line up and apply your blindfold.

[lilmckee]

McKee firing line is in order please line up and apply your blindfold.

Hahah, its all good, I've been standing on the firing wall many times here...


All idea's have their opposition. I suppose everyone has a right to their opinion.....even though they are wrong :keke:






All kidding aside. I understand where they are coming from. They (and we), don't know the details ridesmart will come out with. So, its really hard to form an opinion on the statement "2up on the track."




Maybe I will just rent the track out for ourselves when I reach millionaire baller status :D

[connick]

As I said, this isn't some ground breaking idea here; yall aren't reinventing the wheel- it's been done before.


It might have been done before, but Ridesmart is the only organization in Texas that was willing to give it a shot when I started calling around looking for a place that would allow it. Both LSTD and TTD basically laughed at me, while Dave thought it was an interesting idea and was willing to give it a try, and thanks to him for that.

It's interesting to see so much dissent on this subject. I don't know alot of the posters, but I'm going to assume (bad idea, I know) that most of those who don't like the idea of two-ups on track are racers and/or level 4 riders, guys who go out there to push it to the limit, to that razor's edge. I don't treat the track like that. Sure, I do push it harder then I do on the street, but I also feel that I leave myself a pretty good margin of safety when solo, and even more of a margin when two-up. I'm out there to work on my body positioning, lines, smoothness, and to have fun--not to try and trim another two-tenths off of my laptime (not that I'd be able to tell anyways, since I've never run a lap timer). However, if I was out there to really push myself and my bike's limits, to concentrate on laptimes and on how close to the edge I could get... there's no way I'd be taking a passenger with me, and involve them in that risk. That wouldn't be worth it.

As for how I ride on the track, however, I don't see any problem with taking a passenger along. My wife and I do quite a bit of two-up riding on the street (I'd guesstimate somewhere around 12-15,000 miles in the past 3 years), including alot of sport-touring that involves some very twisty roads. I did my first trackday just over two years ago (and have done another dozen since), and the difference it made in my street riding was huge. The knowledge regarding body positioning, lines, and just the confidence it gives you in knowing what you and your bike can do can give you a much larger margin of safety when riding challenging roads. Why not impart that same knowledge and confidence to your passenger? I remember doing some day rides after I'd started doing trackdays, and when I got to the tight stuff, I'd instinctively start sliding off the seat slightly and leaning into the corners--not to the extreme that I do on the track, but just moderately--and I could sense my passenger being uncomfortable because she wasn't sure what to do, or how to react when I was moving around on the bike. Now we've done four trackdays together, during which time we were able to completely work out how we should work together to position ourselves while cornering, and we were able to do it in a controlled environment that is perfect for learning stuff like that. Now she knows what it feels like when the bike is heeled all the way over in a corner, and if I should ever make a mistake in my street riding and go into a corner way to hot, I can count on her not to panic and stiffen up, because she's been there before, and she knows that the bike--and herself--can handle it.

Safety... Sure, it can be dangerous on the track, which is why everyone is wearing full gear. Yes, there's always the chance that you might crash, even through absolutely no fault of your own. That is simply a risk that both rider and passenger have to accept (and that goes for EVERY rider on the track, obviously, not only two-ups). However, it's not any more dangerous for two people to be on a bike then one; we don't make a bigger target or attract crashes. If someone is going to take me out, it's not going to matter whether I have a passenger or not. As long as both people are willing to accept the risks that come inherent with being out on the track, it should not matter whether they are one one bike or two.

Anyways, that's enough of a novel for my first post. I'll just close by saying that, without a doubt, getting out on the track two-up helped my wife and I become far more confident in our street riding. If anyone else does frequent two-up sport or sport-touring riding on the street, I would highly reccomend trying a two-up trackday to improve your skills.

Thanks again to Dave and Ridesmart for letting this happen. You guys rock!

[cdill35]

It might have been done before, but Ridesmart is the only organization in Texas that was willing to give it a shot when I started calling around looking for a place that would allow it. Both LSTD and TTD basically laughed at me, while Dave thought it was an interesting idea and was willing to give it a try, and thanks to him for that.

It's interesting to see so much dissent on this subject. I don't know alot of the posters, but I'm going to assume (bad idea, I know) that most of those who don't like the idea of two-ups on track are racers and/or level 4 riders, guys who go out there to push it to the limit, to that razor's edge. I don't treat the track like that. Sure, I do push it harder then I do on the street, but I also feel that I leave myself a pretty good margin of safety when solo, and even more of a margin when two-up. I'm out there to work on my body positioning, lines, smoothness, and to have fun--not to try and trim another two-tenths off of my laptime (not that I'd be able to tell anyways, since I've never run a lap timer). However, if I was out there to really push myself and my bike's limits, to concentrate on laptimes and on how close to the edge I could get... there's no way I'd be taking a passenger with me, and involve them in that risk. That wouldn't be worth it.

As for how I ride on the track, however, I don't see any problem with taking a passenger along. My wife and I do quite a bit of two-up riding on the street (I'd guesstimate somewhere around 12-15,000 miles in the past 3 years), including alot of sport-touring that involves some very twisty roads. I did my first trackday just over two years ago (and have done another dozen since), and the difference it made in my street riding was huge. The knowledge regarding body positioning, lines, and just the confidence it gives you in knowing what you and your bike can do can give you a much larger margin of safety when riding challenging roads. Why not impart that same knowledge and confidence to your passenger? I remember doing some day rides after I'd started doing trackdays, and when I got to the tight stuff, I'd instinctively start sliding off the seat slightly and leaning into the corners--not to the extreme that I do on the track, but just moderately--and I could sense my passenger being uncomfortable because she wasn't sure what to do, or how to react when I was moving around on the bike. Now we've done four trackdays together, during which time we were able to completely work out how we should work together to position ourselves while cornering, and we were able to do it in a controlled environment that is perfect for learning stuff like that. Now she knows what it feels like when the bike is heeled all the way over in a corner, and if I should ever make a mistake in my street riding and go into a corner way to hot, I can count on her not to panic and stiffen up, because she's been there before, and she knows that the bike--and herself--can handle it.

Safety... Sure, it can be dangerous on the track, which is why everyone is wearing full gear. Yes, there's always the chance that you might crash, even through absolutely no fault of your own. That is simply a risk that both rider and passenger have to accept (and that goes for EVERY rider on the track, obviously, not only two-ups). However, it's not any more dangerous for two people to be on a bike then one; we don't make a bigger target or attract crashes. If someone is going to take me out, it's not going to matter whether I have a passenger or not. As long as both people are willing to accept the risks that come inherent with being out on the track, it should not matter whether they are one one bike or two.

Anyways, that's enough of a novel for my first post. I'll just close by saying that, without a doubt, getting out on the track two-up helped my wife and I become far more confident in our street riding. If anyone else does frequent two-up sport or sport-touring riding on the street, I would highly reccomend trying a two-up trackday to improve your skills.

Thanks again to Dave and Ridesmart for letting this happen. You guys rock!

Welcome to MH. Great first post. Is this you by chance?

iuVfzoAUt8A&feature=channel_page

[lilmckee]

It might have been done before, but Ridesmart is the only organization in Texas that was willing to give it a shot when I started calling around looking for a place that would allow it. Both LSTD and TTD basically laughed at me, while Dave thought it was an interesting idea and was willing to give it a try, and thanks to him for that.

It's interesting to see so much dissent on this subject. I don't know alot of the posters, but I'm going to assume (bad idea, I know) that most of those who don't like the idea of two-ups on track are racers and/or level 4 riders, guys who go out there to push it to the limit, to that razor's edge. I don't treat the track like that. Sure, I do push it harder then I do on the street, but I also feel that I leave myself a pretty good margin of safety when solo, and even more of a margin when two-up. I'm out there to work on my body positioning, lines, smoothness, and to have fun--not to try and trim another two-tenths off of my laptime (not that I'd be able to tell anyways, since I've never run a lap timer). However, if I was out there to really push myself and my bike's limits, to concentrate on laptimes and on how close to the edge I could get... there's no way I'd be taking a passenger with me, and involve them in that risk. That wouldn't be worth it.

As for how I ride on the track, however, I don't see any problem with taking a passenger along. My wife and I do quite a bit of two-up riding on the street (I'd guesstimate somewhere around 12-15,000 miles in the past 3 years), including alot of sport-touring that involves some very twisty roads. I did my first trackday just over two years ago (and have done another dozen since), and the difference it made in my street riding was huge. The knowledge regarding body positioning, lines, and just the confidence it gives you in knowing what you and your bike can do can give you a much larger margin of safety when riding challenging roads. Why not impart that same knowledge and confidence to your passenger? I remember doing some day rides after I'd started doing trackdays, and when I got to the tight stuff, I'd instinctively start sliding off the seat slightly and leaning into the corners--not to the extreme that I do on the track, but just moderately--and I could sense my passenger being uncomfortable because she wasn't sure what to do, or how to react when I was moving around on the bike. Now we've done four trackdays together, during which time we were able to completely work out how we should work together to position ourselves while cornering, and we were able to do it in a controlled environment that is perfect for learning stuff like that. Now she knows what it feels like when the bike is heeled all the way over in a corner, and if I should ever make a mistake in my street riding and go into a corner way to hot, I can count on her not to panic and stiffen up, because she's been there before, and she knows that the bike--and herself--can handle it.

Safety... Sure, it can be dangerous on the track, which is why everyone is wearing full gear. Yes, there's always the chance that you might crash, even through absolutely no fault of your own. That is simply a risk that both rider and passenger have to accept (and that goes for EVERY rider on the track, obviously, not only two-ups). However, it's not any more dangerous for two people to be on a bike then one; we don't make a bigger target or attract crashes. If someone is going to take me out, it's not going to matter whether I have a passenger or not. As long as both people are willing to accept the risks that come inherent with being out on the track, it should not matter whether they are one one bike or two.

Anyways, that's enough of a novel for my first post. I'll just close by saying that, without a doubt, getting out on the track two-up helped my wife and I become far more confident in our street riding. If anyone else does frequent two-up sport or sport-touring riding on the street, I would highly reccomend trying a two-up trackday to improve your skills.

Thanks again to Dave and Ridesmart for letting this happen. You guys rock!

Though I am bias....


That was a fantastic first post!

Thank you for posting. :notworthy:



Dave talked about you a bit to us. Actually, seeing YOUR video dave had, motivated us into talking to dave about 2 up riding. I hope to see you out there at the next TD, and pick your brain for some knowledge!

[dbuck]

nice first post connick....honestly nice post. :thumb: now go introduce yourself. lol

I honestly like the idea....hell, I'm gonna copy and paste my PM conversation with McKee to save some typing....brb

haters :rofl:


what do you think about it :hello:

honestly, pro's and con's to both arguments....

for me

pro's:

learn how added weight and movement effects your bike

teach your passenger that leaning is not the end of the world

learn how to brake effectively with more weight on the bike

crashing at the track is always better than the street though.:thumb:

cons:

safety...honestly, picking a bike up mid corner to avoid someones line and then leaning it back down would be difficult to do with a passenger (but this happens when riding wheel to wheel or at an advanced pace). With fewer people and passing restrictions, this can be avoided.

crashing....crashing with one person sucks...let alone two. Now you have one whambulance for 2 injured riders.


I can't imagine this being set up as a "free for all like a trackday". At best, I would think 2-3 rider "teams" per instructor and very very strict passing rules for all of those participating....
I do not think it should be anything like a trackday in regards to hauling ass to catch your friends and then passing them on the outside.:D which i like to do.:keke:
110% agree :notworthy::notworthy:

[lilmckee]

nice first post connick....honestly nice post. :thumb: now go introduce yourself. lol

I honestly like the idea....hell, I'm gonna copy and paste my PM conversation with McKee to save some typing....brb

:eek3:

they will know our secret!

[lilmckee]

oh that one....ok


good input danny!!!

[kingralphthe3rd]

go mckee go!!!!!

........... and thenextrossi !!!!!!!!!!!!

[lilmckee]

thank you sir :D

[connick]

Welcome to MH. Great first post. Is this you by chance?


Heh, yep, that's us. Dave interviewed us again at the MSRC 7/18 trackday for getting L2 smooth rider, but that one never made it to Youtube. *shrug*


Dave talked about you a bit to us. Actually, seeing YOUR video dave had, motivated us into talking to dave about 2 up riding. I hope to see you out there at the next TD, and pick your brain for some knowledge!

I'm glad to see that more people are considering doing this. It's very educational and helpful, and on top of that, it's just heaps of fun for both people. I hope you guys had a good time out there. I will definitely be at ECR on 10/25, and am going to try making it to MSRC on 8/29, so if you're going to be at either of those and want to try and get together, let me know.

[MacMan]

Both LSTD and TTD basically laughed at me, while Dave thought it was an interesting idea and was willing to give it a try, and thanks to him for that.Sorry,

I never got any requests about doing any 2 up riding???

As I mentioned earlier I favor the concept with restrictions.

[connick]

Sorry,

I never got any requests about doing any 2 up riding???

As I mentioned earlier I favor the concept with restrictions.

I was PM'ing with tomLSTD about this earlier. Sorry, I didn't mean it as a slight or anything on other organizations, so please don't take it that way. It's just that when I was calling/emailing around last summer trying to find a place that would let us do this, LSTD and TTD both kind of blew me off and refused to consider it (and one person did actually laugh at me on the phone, I'm not making that bit up), while RS showed some interest in it--concern and hesitation as well, which is to be expected, but they still were willing to consider it.

I'm glad to hear that some of the LSTD staff do support this idea now, because as I've said, I think it is a beneficial learning experience.

Here is my reponse to tomLSTD's question about who I was in contact with:
I don't recall the name of the person at LSTD who I was talking too. I can check my email when I get home (don't have access to it at work) and see if I can find any correspondence, but it would have been with one of the contact addresses listed on the webpage. I'm pretty sure I was talking to Manu at TTD, but just don't remember a name from LSTD. Both organizations said that they'd consider doing two-up parade laps, but would absolutely not consider allowing at-speed laps. Both brought up concerns with insurance, how other riders would react, and how it was just plain "too dangerous." To be fair, Dave had these same initial impressions, but he was willing to check with his insurance and let us try it out to see how things went. It was well over a year ago that I was asking about this as well, so maybe things have changed since then.

In any case I'll let you know who I was talking with if I can find the email later.

[zimmer]

63 posts. McKee see what you started!

[lilmckee]

I blame deano

[skmart2]

i have only been a passenger twice in my life and hated it because i was too afraid of not knowing what to expect as far as the handling of the bike and how it all feels ect. and then to mix it in with street traffic just made the experience unenjoyable for me. given the opportunity to ride 2 up on a closed course such as what RS is looking to possibly offer along with instruction, i would certainly jump at the chance! as it's been stated many times before, people are going to ride 2 up on the streets regardless of who else out there may see it as stupid or unsafe so why not try and take the opportunity to teach someone in a much more safe environment and where a "professional" can explain to them to the best of their knowledge and experience as many safety precautions as possible along with potential hazards and how to avoid those hazards or minimize the effects of them?

just my .02 :thumb:

[tomLSTD]

I was PM'ing with tomLSTD about this earlier. Sorry, I didn't mean it as a slight or anything on other organizations, so please don't take it that way. It's just that when I was calling/emailing around last summer trying to find a place that would let us do this, LSTD and TTD both kind of blew me off and refused to consider it (and one person did actually laugh at me on the phone, I'm not making that bit up), while RS showed some interest in it--concern and hesitation as well, which is to be expected, but they still were willing to consider it.

I'm glad to hear that some of the LSTD staff do support this idea now, because as I've said, I think it is a beneficial learning experience.

Here is my reponse to tomLSTD's question about who I was in contact with:

I'm really trying to stay out of this forum (for decorum and "rules" purposes), hence the PM I sent you about it. While my opinion comes from a management perspective with LSTD, like my esteemed colleague CarbonJames said, we're also trackday junkies who happen to work for an organization.

It's not a matter of "if we support it now"; none of the contact people (i.e. the owners of LSTD) that are listed on the website can recall any conversation about this.

As I said in my PM back to you, it's not our way of doing business to "laugh" at our customer's suggestions and questions. We take this seriously and I personally felt that your first post regarding this (the "laughed at") was incredulous.

Regarding the matter at hand and also as in my PM, we don't favor mixing 2-up with solo riders- we feel that would be a negligent action on our part, not to mention unsafe in our opinion.

Now, 2-up with rules/ restrictions or formatted riding group? That's something else.

As I said earlier, we've done it before, it's nothing new or foreign.

Again, I hope this endeavor is successful to RS and no harm comes to anyone if it is un-successful.

[lilmckee]

I still don't understand why it is so much more unsafe for an experienced two up "team" than sending a flock of newbies all out at one time.

"Add's to the danger" Really? 1 newbie can't take out 2 other bikes at the same time? Ya'll never notice how the lvl 1 guys group up in packs, and the rest of the track is open? Damn, those mofkers can flop like dominios.


Will there be a two up wreck? Probably...just as good of a chance as 3 or 4 lvl 4/Advance riders pushing the limits, reaching those extra seconds and wrecking. Or just as good of a chance as newbies thinking they are the shit in the first session, on the first lap, with cold tires....


Hell....there has been more then 1 wreck in more then 1 organization of a rider going down on a ~35 mph restricted parade lap.


Not sure what I am getting at here....but it is dangerous. We all know.



I guess we should wait until we can see what the restrictions, rules, and regulations will be....

[lilmckee]

Side note: Probably doesn't mean anything, but I noticed those who don't ride the street any more, seem to be more opposed to the idea then those that do.

Guess I'm not on a motorcycle for the same reason you track-only guys are. I like the touring, the scenery, then new turn ahead, the hop on the bike and go aspect. Seeing the country, the country-side, the meets, the brothers and sisters. Then going to the track and seeing how my skills can be improved. As well as the overall freedom I suppose.

And so does my S.O. And WE are just using the track as a educational/instructional tool so WE can do those things WE love to do on the street, with a much more knowledgeable skill.


Maybe I am way off. But that's how I really feel. If this just dissolves and fades away, and we are not able to do this in the future; I would just like to say thanks to Ridesmart and the instructors for the short time we were able to improve our bond as a motorcycle "team."

Also like to thank everyone for their support and/or their input. I hope those that oppose this endeavor, don't feel as if they are not being heard. I hear you. I understand. We just differ in view.

Ride Safe. Have Fun.

[jcat]

damn mckee you sure stirred up some shit :keke:

[lilmckee]

damn mckee you sure stirred up some shit :keke:

should I make the myspace friends thread again? :keke:









no...seriously that was a joke :rofl:

[tomLSTD]

Scott, I'm guessing this is directed at me (maybe not), so I'll respond to this and then bow out for good.

I still don't understand why it is so much more unsafe for an experienced two up "team" than sending a flock of newbies all out at one time.

"Add's to the danger" Really? 1 newbie can't take out 2 other bikes at the same time? Ya'll never notice how the lvl 1 guys group up in packs, and the rest of the track is open? Damn, those mofkers can flop like dominios. Because that isn't what we do. Have you ever been to an LSTD? Just curious, not being a smartass. To whit, I don't think it's what RS does either (but I haven't been to one of there events in a long time).

Adds to the danger? Yes. Any time you add an unknown variable (an additional human being) it adds to the danger. The difference is that with solo riders you have a couple of differences: the speed differential is greatly changed- a solo rider has much more potential to ride safely on the track at speed than a two-up bike. Additionally, if a pillion does something to affect the geometry (like an untoward movement) mid-corner/ corner entry/ corner exit, they could cause a crash and/ or cause a run-off which will almost assuredly cause a crash. That scenario doesn't exist with a solo rider- only the one holding the bars could be a bad passenger on the bike in that case.

You can "what if" all you want about the potential to crash solo or two-up, but there is no arguing that the potential for accident is greater with two on a bike vs one.


Will there be a two up wreck? Probably...just as good of a chance as 3 or 4 lvl 4/Advance riders pushing the limits, reaching those extra seconds and wrecking. Or just as good of a chance as newbies thinking they are the shit in the first session, on the first lap, with cold tires.... I think I exemplified the difference above, but again, now you've affected two people with an accident- that's the difference. Not to mention that there is another person on the bike to affect the dynamics of the bike's suspension and tires.


Hell....there has been more then 1 wreck in more then 1 organization of a rider going down on a ~35 mph restricted parade lap.

... and this is why we don't do parade laps. Not worth the risk to the customer, visitor, or to the company providing track days in our opinion.

Now we do parade laps at CMRA races on Sunday, but if you think what RS does on parade laps is tame, you'll fall asleep on a CMRA parade lap.

Side note: Probably doesn't mean anything, but I noticed those who don't ride the street any more, seem to be more opposed to the idea then those that do. Long before folks were speeding and running in to the backs of cars on the freeways, doing stand-up wheelies and flipping over backwards at 100+ mph on 59, and racing up Memorial and back down Allen Parkway (been there, done that, got the tickets and t-shirt with impound tickets), I was riding on the street. Motorcycles were my only mode of transportation from 1985- ~1992, and part-time transportation/ street riding for the next 8-10 years after 1992. I've logged more miles on long trips and short commute than I bet most of you have logged in your total miles in cars or bike in your entire lives (speaking to the youngsters). I'm older and wiser now, and I've seen the "light". I still occasionally ride the street, but it is really rare.

I've spent more time at race tracks racing and providing track safety for SCCA, CRRC, CMRA and LSTD than I can count. I've seen more dead folks in real life from motorcycle accidents than most have seen in their whole lives on TV or movies. So when I speak of safety, I speak from experience. I understand risk vs reward, it's what I do for a living.

Guess I'm not on a motorcycle for the same reason you track-only guys are. I like the touring, the scenery, then new turn ahead, the hop on the bike and go aspect. Seeing the country, the country-side, the meets, the brothers and sisters. Then going to the track and seeing how my skills can be improved. As well as the overall freedom I suppose. See above, been there, done that. Still do it.

This, like other hot topic items on this type of forum will be a debate for whomever wants to participate I guess. As I said in earlier posts, I hope for the best; I truly do! Unfortunately it's easy to see the down-side to activities that increase risk.

There certainly is a right and wrong way to do these types of things; hopefully if this activity continues it's done in the "right" way.

Peace.

[lilmckee]

Scott, I'm guessing this is directed at me (maybe not), so I'll respond to this and then bow out for good.

Because that isn't what we do. Have you ever been to an LSTD? Just curious, not being a smartass. To whit, I don't think it's what RS does either (but I haven't been to one of there events in a long time).

Adds to the danger? Yes. Any time you add an unknown variable (an additional human being) it adds to the danger. The difference is that with solo riders you have a couple of differences: the speed differential is greatly changed- a solo rider has much more potential to ride safely on the track at speed than a two-up bike. Additionally, if a pillion does something to affect the geometry (like an untoward movement) mid-corner/ corner entry/ corner exit, they could cause a crash and/ or cause a run-off which will almost assuredly cause a crash. That scenario doesn't exist with a solo rider- only the one holding the bars could be a bad passenger on the bike in that case.

You can "what if" all you want about the potential to crash solo or two-up, but there is no arguing that the potential for accident is greater with two on a bike vs one.

I think I exemplified the difference above, but again, now you've affected two people with an accident- that's the difference. Not to mention that there is another person on the bike to affect the dynamics of the bike's suspension and tires.

... and this is why we don't do parade laps. Not worth the risk to the customer, visitor, or to the company providing track days in our opinion.

Now we do parade laps at CMRA races on Sunday, but if you think what RS does on parade laps is tame, you'll fall asleep on a CMRA parade lap.

Long before folks were speeding and running in to the backs of cars on the freeways, doing stand-up wheelies and flipping over backwards at 100+ mph on 59, and racing up Memorial and back down Allen Parkway (been there, done that, got the tickets and t-shirt with impound tickets), I was riding on the street. Motorcycles were my only mode of transportation from 1985- ~1992, and part-time transportation/ street riding for the next 8-10 years after 1992. I've logged more miles on long trips and short commute than I bet most of you have logged in your total miles in cars or bike in your entire lives (speaking to the youngsters). I'm older and wiser now, and I've seen the "light". I still occasionally ride the street, but it is really rare.

I've spent more time at race tracks racing and providing track safety for SCCA, CRRC, CMRA and LSTD than I can count. I've seen more dead folks in real life from motorcycle accidents than most have seen in their whole lives on TV or movies. So when I speak of safety, I speak from experience. I understand risk vs reward, it's what I do for a living.
See above, been there, done that. Still do it.

This, like other hot topic items on this type of forum will be a debate for whomever wants to participate I guess. As I said in earlier posts, I hope for the best; I truly do! Unfortunately it's easy to see the down-side to activities that increase risk.

There certainly is a right and wrong way to do these types of things; hopefully if this activity continues it's done in the "right" way.

Peace.

My statement wasn't specifically addressed just to you Tom. Don't be so vain :D


Joking aside, I think you are really looking way too deep into the point I was trying to make. Probably my fault for not being well versed and articulate enough to make the proper statement.


From the moment I heard about trackdays, the number 1 selling tool for the organizations were, providing a safe environment to do what we love. I.E. No Cops, controlled environment, minimal-to-no vehicle fluids and gravel, etc.

Why not use it as a tool to do the same for 2up riders?
I see your argument is that you feel it is THAT much more dangerous. I suppose that's where I am not convinced. Like I said before, I personally don't think its any less safe than the advanced classes shaving seconds off their times. Or any less safe than a class full of first timers.

I guess we stand pretty firm on our sides of the issue. We just see it a different way. Honestly, I would be ignorant not to value your input, due to the many years of experience vs. my minimal experience. I tried looking at your side, as opened minded as I could. And still don't agree.



Thanks for being part of the conversation :hello:

[MacMan]

I love street riding. I absolutely DO NOT HAUL ASS on street rides anymore.
I ride my Harley with my wife on weekend trips or day rides. Tame and relaxing.

[sbfuller]

after reading through this thread... I still think it would be a great idea. My risk of crashing with a passenger is no more then my risk of crashing with just me. the track is a more controlled environment with the same corners over and over again. why not practice 2 up there. when i went out by myself at MSRH, i was riding at about my 70 - 80% of ability level. I was giving my self room for error. so at that comfort level maybe i'm doing 45mph though T1... and that is just an arbitrary mph btw. now put my wife on the back and my 70 - 80% comfort level drops to 38mph... so I'll be doing 38mph through the corner. just because i have a passenger doesn't mean i am any more likely to crash. she knows to look through the corner and ALWAYS on my inside... occasionally I'll spook her on a street ride if she feels we are going to fast, why not get her used to that feeling at the track so that it doesn't happen on the street where cars can/will run us over?

I'm not asking to go ride 2 up an level 4 at a break neck speed. I'm talking about riding with some of the novice riders in the lowest class and maybe the next class up if i have the speed and comfort level. we would use the track to learn how to work better and be more in tune with each other and at some point would be almost considered as one rider since we ride so much. I'd love to get my wife out there with me but she does not have a full set of leathers. I'd rather do a trackday with her then one by myself where she sits there or at the house all alone. I trust my abilities with her on the bike more than i trust her abilities learning to ride a motorcycle, at least right now, and that is why she doesn't have a bike.

additionally, about 90% of my street riding is with her on the bike with me. How does me doing a trackday by myself help me on the street when the handling characteristics change so much? I'd rather practice like I'm going to ride on the street

[Badchev]

after reading through this thread... I still think it would be a great idea. My risk of crashing with a passenger is no more then my risk of crashing with just me. the track is a more controlled environment with the same corners over and over again. why not practice 2 up there. when i went out by myself at MSRH, i was riding at about my 70 - 80% of ability level. I was giving my self room for error. so at that comfort level maybe i'm doing 45mph though T1... and that is just an arbitrary mph btw. now put my wife on the back and my 70 - 80% comfort level drops to 38mph... so I'll be doing 38mph through the corner. just because i have a passenger doesn't mean i am any more likely to crash. she knows to look through the corner and ALWAYS on my inside... occasionally I'll spook her on a street ride if she feels we are going to fast, why not get her used to that feeling at the track so that it doesn't happen on the street where cars can/will run us over?

I'm not asking to go ride 2 up an level 4 at a break neck speed. I'm talking about riding with some of the novice riders in the lowest class and maybe the next class up if i have the speed and comfort level. we would use the track to learn how to work better and be more in tune with each other and at some point would be almost considered as one rider since we ride so much. I'd love to get my wife out there with me but she does not have a full set of leathers. I'd rather do a trackday with her then one by myself where she sits there or at the house all alone. I trust my abilities with her on the bike more than i trust her abilities learning to ride a motorcycle, at least right now, and that is why she doesn't have a bike.

additionally, about 90% of my street riding is with her on the bike with me. How does me doing a trackday by myself help me on the street when the handling characteristics change so much? I'd rather practice like I'm going to ride on the street

I rarely ride 2-up.........maybe twice in the last 5 years......but I do think this is a good idea.

[07SLVRCBR]

It seems to me that most the nay-sayers of the 2-up idea assume the riders are going out to break track records.

I agree with the guys/gals that wish for a way to practice their communication and have a venue to 'find theirselves' at a track.

We (ALL OF US) started out in a Novice/Noob program. Under tuteledge and supervision, we were allowed to advance. Would this 2-up program operate any differently?

Who cares if little Johnny rides level 6 with RS/LSTD/whomever? Once he straps his old ladies' ass on the back, he's a NOOB. Is that a difficult concept to grasp?

How many of you guys/gals grid up with intent to crash? I think the same respect we 'should' have towards other riders in our group should translate to the idea of having someone ridding pillion.

[cdill35]

Bottom line...again...and I do not see why it is so hard for some to understand.

Track days = improved riding skills.
Improved riding skills = fewer crashes on the streets.
Fewer crashes = saved lives and/or less injuries.

Whether it be ONE person on the bike or TWO.

[lilmckee]

Thanks for the input everyone

[lilmckee]

mmmm nothing like riding 2up on the street with a hot girl holding on for dear life

[lilmckee]

or in zimmer's case....lil 12 year old boys :eek3:

[07SLVRCBR]

^^^ rut roh

[zimmer]

The faster you go the tighter it gets. hmmmm:thumb:

[lilmckee]

oh thats nasty

[jcat]

oh thats nasty


thats not what you where saying lastnight:eek3:

[zimmer]

Thats wrong of you

[Solo]

after reading through this thread... I still think it would be a great idea. My risk of crashing with a passenger is no more then my risk of crashing with just me. the track is a more controlled environment with the same corners over and over again. why not practice 2 up there. when i went out by myself at MSRH, i was riding at about my 70 - 80% of ability level. I was giving my self room for error. so at that comfort level maybe i'm doing 45mph though T1... and that is just an arbitrary mph btw. now put my wife on the back and my 70 - 80% comfort level drops to 38mph... so I'll be doing 38mph through the corner. just because i have a passenger doesn't mean i am any more likely to crash. she knows to look through the corner and ALWAYS on my inside... occasionally I'll spook her on a street ride if she feels we are going to fast, why not get her used to that feeling at the track so that it doesn't happen on the street where cars can/will run us over?

I'm not asking to go ride 2 up an level 4 at a break neck speed. I'm talking about riding with some of the novice riders in the lowest class and maybe the next class up if i have the speed and comfort level. we would use the track to learn how to work better and be more in tune with each other and at some point would be almost considered as one rider since we ride so much. I'd love to get my wife out there with me but she does not have a full set of leathers. I'd rather do a trackday with her then one by myself where she sits there or at the house all alone. I trust my abilities with her on the bike more than i trust her abilities learning to ride a motorcycle, at least right now, and that is why she doesn't have a bike.

additionally, about 90% of my street riding is with her on the bike with me. How does me doing a trackday by myself help me on the street when the handling characteristics change so much? I'd rather practice like I'm going to ride on the street


I agree 100% with this post. Everyone keeps talkin about possible accidents and danger to passengers ,but some think that just because you hit the track you have to haul azz. If you haul azz your just being an idiot. yes there is always a chance of a wreck ,but I rather wreck on the track than on the streets anyday. There is no place safer than the track to tone up your skills solo or 2up. I ride 2up alot on the streets. Wife wants to be involved in the motorcycle community and I'm glad she does. I'm glad to have a wife who supports me in my sport rather than try to hold me back. So when she wants to come along I bring her. When I first the video I was like WTF aswell , but i started to think about and realize it is a good idea. Like somebody said not everyone who does a trackday wants to be a racer. I encourage my friends to do a trackday so they can learn to ride better. One trackday can make a big differance. I've seen it with alot of my friends. The same can be said for 2up riders. It can teach the rider how to hande his or her bike and the passenger what to do aswell. Like I said there is no place safer to learn than a track in my opinion. Its not the same putt putting in a parkin lot. you dont putt putt in the back roads. you go a good pace. Like I said before i rather wreck on the track where there is help available on the spot than wreck in the back roads and who knows what i might hit and wait who knows how long for medical attention.

just my .02 got to get back to work:eekspin:

[Solo]

i ment if you haul ass with a passenger. yout being an idiot when im solo im in the front pack hit the twisties but when im with her im in the back taking my time ridin safely

[Deano3090]

My feelings are that the track is were you become a better rider.

Solo or 2-up, it's the safest place to play

[Solo]

bingo

[dhdrider]

While I appreciate everyone's passion about this (positive or negative) please keep in mind, like we have already stated, that we are still just beginning to look at this.

Yes, we already have had 2-3 2-ups at our events. These were a one-off type situation where it was planned far in advance (multiple conversations btwn management & riders) and everyone involved was well aware of what was happening, and we also had it at a coulpe of events that were not at capacity.

While we have not agreed on all the specifics, I do not belive we will have the situation where there will be more than 1-2 2-ups at an event and they will always be in Level 1.

Again, more specifics about rules & curriculum are to follow.:hello:

[zimmer]

While I appreciate everyone's passion about this (positive or negative) please keep in mind, like we have already stated, that we are still just beginning to look at this.

Yes, we already have had 2-3 2-ups at our events. These were a one-off type situation where it was planned far in advance (multiple conversations btwn management & riders) and everyone involved was well aware of what was happening, and we also had it at a coulpe of events that were not at capacity.

While we have not agreed on all the specifics, I do not belive we will have the situation where there will be more than 1-2 2-ups at an event and they will always be in Level 1.

Again, more specifics about rules & curriculum are to follow.:hello:
Thank you RideSmart for giving us that opportunity last weekend at ECR.